Mailwatch(ed) Forum

So far it's been a massacre.

Problem is Hartlepool is a red herring - it was only Labour because of the split between Tory and Brexit party last time. Plus people being out from lockdown, vaccination success, and some economic upswing. It was always going to be a shitshow because a lot of the public will see that and have a memory 0.1 seconds long. There are some things that could have gone better, but this isn’t Corbyn or Starmer. It’s Johnson’s infuriating run of luck/appeal to the most base of people.

Long time until the next GE.

And Hartlepool has one of he least educated demographics in the country.

Harsh, but I've been there...

Don't they still celebrate hanging the monkey with their football team mascot? Not something I'd be proud of...

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am And Hartlepool has one of he least educated demographics in the country.

Harsh, but I've been there...

But what about elsewhere Dudley, Sunderland, Harlow, Redditch and other councils yet to declare what does that say about us?

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am And Hartlepool has one of he least educated demographics in the country.

Harsh, but I've been there...

Labour’s had a terrible night everywhere. If the party gained ground in Nuneaton at the expense of coastal fringe seats that a would be worthwhile trade off.

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:48 am

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am And Hartlepool has one of he least educated demographics in the country.

Harsh, but I've been there...

But what about elsewhere Dudley, Sunderland, Harlow, Redditch and other councils yet to declare what does that say about us?

What am I supposed to say? That low educational levels doesn't matter?

As expected, from the anarcho-syndicalist elsewhere;

One can be certain that the present Labour leadership will learn nothing from their defeat. In 2019, Labour lost the Brexit vote, now they have lost the progressive vote. Already Party "spokespersons" are declaring the need to redouble efforts to move away from the policies of the Corbyn years. Risible!

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:53 am What am I supposed to say? That low educational levels doesn't matter?

Does blaming the electorate help, though? I seem to recall an awful lot of that went on in the Corbyn years.

I'm not sure what an anarcho-syndicalist is supposed to love about Corbyn. The state is king in that version of Labour.

Who am I kidding? As if they care.

As for blaming the electorate, of course it doesn't help. Corbyn stans were all about that too, as Boiler observes. There's a difference in identifying why people vote the way they do, but the conclusion has to be 'so how do we make them vote for us without abandoning our core principles?'. (or, can we safely remove these people from our calculus?)

That is, of course, the trick...

We are in danger of blaming the electorate but, once all other suspects have been eliminated, it is difficult to come to any other conclusion.

Wife 1.0 is from the area and I too have first hand experience of the area. Thick, nasty, racist, and entirely relaxed about that.

Boiler wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:56 am

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:53 am What am I supposed to say? That low educational levels doesn't matter?

Does blaming the electorate help, though? I seem to recall an awful lot of that went on in the Corbyn years.

I'm not blaming them, I'm trying to explain why our message isn't getting through in the face of what is a superficially successful pandemic response by the Tories.

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:53 am

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:48 am

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am And Hartlepool has one of he least educated demographics in the country.

Harsh, but I've been there...

But what about elsewhere Dudley, Sunderland, Harlow, Redditch and other councils yet to declare what does that say about us?

What am I supposed to say? That low educational levels doesn't matter?

Blaming the electorate never works.

What can you do to win the votes of people who have nothing and love the party who gave it to them?

davidjay wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:22 am What can you do to win the votes of people who have nothing and love the party who gave it to them?

Nothing.

Here's a thought: paraphrasing slightly, have people simply had enough of socialism?

Noting remarks made about the electorate of Hartlepool, they've been given vaccines and Brexit. They'd be thankful to the party that gave them that - and who knows? If Article 50 had been triggered the day after the referendum as Corbyn suggested, maybe that would have been a vote-winner in these now Tory areas.

Fact is: Labour lost. Its message didn't appeal. It's not the fault of the electorate, it's the fault of Labour. It's as simple as that.

Boiler wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:25 am

davidjay wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:22 am What can you do to win the votes of people who have nothing and love the party who gave it to them?

Nothing.

Here's a thought: paraphrasing slightly, have people had enough of socialism?

They've been telling us that since 1979.

I think a huge, huge amount has to be attributed to the fact that by sheer luck, the most recent thing (the vaccine rollout) has gone brilliantly, and that's all a lot of people will see. That, and the government literally paying people's wages for a big chunk of the year, and the sun starting to shine in pub beer gardens.

None of these factors will be around (or fresh) in 2 years, but what will be around is stagnation and decay from brexit, massive job losses postponed from now because of bailouts, potential loss of Scotland and the break-up of the union, christ knows what in Northern Ireland, cuts to services and council tax hikes, and another 2 years of dodgy wallpaper deals and the like.

Does Starmer need to make a better case for the labour deal and really start hammering home solid policies? Sure. Could he realistically do much of anything about the unique context of these elections? Not really.

Luck had nothing to do with the vaccine rollout. It was planned properly and organised well. Kate Bingham deserves praise for it.

Crabcakes wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:34 am I think a huge, huge amount has to be attributed to the fact that by sheer luck, the most recent thing (the vaccine rollout) has gone brilliantly, and that's all a lot of people will see. That, and the government literally paying people's wages for a big chunk of the year, and the sun starting to shine in pub beer gardens.

None of these factors will be around (or fresh) in 2 years, but what will be around is stagnation and decay from brexit, massive job losses postponed from now because of bailouts, potential loss of Scotland and the break-up of the union, christ knows what in Northern Ireland, cuts to services and council tax hikes, and another 2 years of dodgy wallpaper deals and the like.

Does Starmer need to make a better case for the labour deal and really start hammering home solid policies? Sure. Could he realistically do much of anything about the unique context of these elections? Not really.

We've had what we view as decline under the Tories since 2010.

Yet they still win elections.

Crabcakes wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:34 am I think a huge, huge amount has to be attributed to the fact that by sheer luck, the most recent thing (the vaccine rollout) has gone brilliantly, and that's all a lot of people will see. That, and the government literally paying people's wages for a big chunk of the year, and the sun starting to shine in pub beer gardens.

None of these factors will be around (or fresh) in 2 years, but what will be around is stagnation and decay from brexit, massive job losses postponed from now because of bailouts, potential loss of Scotland and the break-up of the union, christ knows what in Northern Ireland, cuts to services and council tax hikes, and another 2 years of dodgy wallpaper deals and the like.

Does Starmer need to make a better case for the labour deal and really start hammering home solid policies? Sure. Could he realistically do much of anything about the unique context of these elections? Not really.

Simply waiting for their fall won't do it.