Mailwatch(ed) Forum

Start whining about the power of the civil service you'll sound like a leader who's not in charge or up to the job.

Ian a civil servant has openly said that we need to pull the plug on the government and you don't think that is a little concerning.

Tubby Isaacs wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 5:17 pm Cameron and Osborne got home on the back of a reckless referendum promise and a flukey rise in living standards in 2014/5.

Which ties in with something I've just remembered - after the 2015 election a Tory was gloating that they won because people were better off, citing jobs in his constituency paying £11.50 an hour as opposed to £10.50 a year earlier. Simple things do make a difference.

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:45 pm Ian a civil servant has openly said that we need to pull the plug on the government and you don't think that is a little concerning.

If the PM's lost the confidence of his civil service that is concerning. Not that some mate of Peston's having a hissing fit is evidence of this.

Civil Servants do not have the right to pull the plug on any government because they don't like the government they're here to serve.

Youngian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 9:27 pm

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:45 pm Ian a civil servant has openly said that we need to pull the plug on the government and you don't think that is a little concerning.

If the PM's lost the confidence of his civil service that is concerning. Not that some mate of Peston's having a hissing fit is evidence of this.

By what mandate do civil servants get to determine government policy?

Youngian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:36 pm Start whining about the power of the civil service you'll sound like a leader who's not in charge or up to the job.

There is a real issue with civil service productivity, as identified by the ONS. I don’t think it’s outrageous to suggest that there’s some complacent leadership about, and it was fairly clear they were talking about that level, not the admin clerk.

It’s Dave Penman’s job to stand up for senior civil servants but he’s overreacted a bit, I think. It’s not something you can say is “inaccurate”. It’s a matter of opinion.

Oboogie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 9:57 pm

Youngian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 9:27 pm

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:45 pm Ian a civil servant has openly said that we need to pull the plug on the government and you don't think that is a little concerning.

If the PM's lost the confidence of his civil service that is concerning. Not that some mate of Peston's having a hissing fit is evidence of this.

By what mandate do civil servants get to determine government policy?

They obviously don't but when the captain starts blaming the troops publicly for not falling in line, whose fault is that?

Starmer needs to get a grip with his comms as Harold Wilson, his dull statistician predecessor whom Keir looks up to, understood even in the analogue age. Farage is coming over the hill fast and this government needs to audit his bullshit. I know Keir doesn't want to reopen old wounds of division from 2016 but Farage is doing it anyway in a repackage. Don't bore us, get to the chorus.

I don't think Farage is reopening Brexit more playing the populist. Labour should hit him hard by pointing out how a lot of their policies don't add up.

You don't defeat Fargle with facts, you have to do it with emotions.

Youngian wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:36 pm Start whining about the power of the civil service you'll sound like a leader who's not in charge or up to the job.

There are a number of issues about the civil service which need to be addressed, and Starmer is right to do so if we are to get efficient government.

The first is productivity - the average hours worked per day is about 4 (according to a consultant I worked with). This has led to considerable complacency, delays and slippage. There needs to be a tighter control, which will be in the hands of the First Division, who have allowed this situation to arise, and will mean conflict with unions.

The second is the degree to which the civil service has been politicised under the Tories, where recruitment and promotion has been based on agreement with Tory values and policies (especially Brexit). At one time (not so long ago) civil servants were genuinely impartial, they made ministers' wishes come true, if humanly possible whether they agreed with them or not. They did not take political sides, even to the extent of not taking part in political activities outside of work. That seems no longer to apply.

Thirdly, the work that this government will demand will be complex - on a level with Brexit - and that takes a 'can-do' attitude and flexibility, neither of which have been much in evidence in recent years as political miss-steps have been the end of careers.

So there is a gauntlet thrown down, and it remains to be seen if the civil service will respond positively.

The Civil Service always strikes me as being two separate entities - the lower ranks who work in Job Centres and offices and the seniors who run the country. There doesn't seem much connection between the two.

davidjay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2024 11:50 pm The Civil Service always strikes me as being two separate entities - the lower ranks who work in Job Centres and offices and the seniors who run the country. There doesn't seem much connection between the two.

Disconnect even in the former but yeah, I’ve never felt more out than I did at the future leaders job thing.

It’s not I can’t manage people or a department that is what I do now. It’s just they seemed very keen on a certain type.

In the Guardian The Civil Servant isn't happy that Starmer dared to make some fairly mild criticisms of the civil service and has sent Starmer a memo


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... 5mJIsWq2pg

Back in July, Sir Keir spaffed a fragile meringue of “confidence, support and respect” over the civil service. That was then vaporised 10 days ago under the unforgiving lights of Pinewood’s film studios in Buckinghamshire.

Starmer there delivered his landmark Plan for Change speech which, among its well-trailed themes, contained the slightly Trumpian claim that too many civil servants are “comfortable in the tepid bath of managed decline”. To which many civil servants will – after enduring the bleeding clusterbùrachs of Brexit, Covid and the cost of living crisis – only say: “Wow.”

Spare a thought, too, for Sir Chris Wormald KCB, whose very first few days as Starmer’s new cabinet secretary and head of the civil service have been spent not rewiring the state but dealing instead with a furious union backlash.

The PM has since read the room and beat a hasty retreat, though not before mustering yet another ejaculation of praise for the civil service that commends us worker bees for our dedication and professionalism. Ministers right across government have also been re-spreading the love. But you don’t need to be an expert in the law of diminishing returns to know that this round of affectionate outgassing is going to dissipate even more rapidly than the last.

Sure enough, Cabinet Office minister Pat McFadden appeared a few days later to carpet-bomb the public square with cringeworthy tech-bro metaphors about disruptors, rebooting the civil service and taking a Silicon Valley move-fast-and-break-things approach to public sector reform. While McFadden – who has the slightly mournful air of a second-tier football league referee – at least has the common sense to state that he is more interested in answers than pursuing grievances, his tone seems calculated to channel the “weirdos and misfits” skunkworks phase of a certain D Cummings, with whom Starmer’s senior officials are widely reported to be of one mind when it comes to the “problem’” of the civil service.

Yes Jolyon Starmer calling out someone who is doing their utmost to block road improvements is just the same as enemy of the people.

https://bsky.app/profile/jolyonmaugham. ... fzneedik2s

*Absolutely disgraceful* from Starmer, to write using this inflammatory language, about an identifiable individual.

Wildly irresponsible - reminiscent of the worst excesses of the Johnson era when Cummings fed the papers thinly disguised attack lines and I got real death threats.

Who is Jolyon Starmer?

Oh come on. It's perectly obvious what I meant.

Yes. Perectly.

Yeah it is. I mean you have heard of Jolyon Maugham? KC, campaigner, he clubbed a fox to death whilst wearing a kinimo a few years back. Come on you two you must know who he is?

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 12:15 am Oh come on. It's perectly obvious what I meant.

Shrugs.