[Yug]

Except it wasn't just racists who were into eugenics plenty of left-wing people were into it as well...

Do you really believe that people with left-leaning political views can't be racists?

[The Weeping Angel]

No I don't. Left-wing people can be racist.

[Yug]

So why list them as though they are two completely separate groups when you know they can be one and the same?

Please think about what you are writing. That statement I quoted makes you look either very naive or totally barking. That's why I asked.

[Crabcakes]

Except it wasn't just racists who were into eugenics plenty of left-wing people were into it as well and no just because they didn't want the poor to have kids it doesn't make it alright in fact in many ways it makes it worse.

Being left wing and being racist aren’t mutually exclusive for one thing (see: fans of J. Corbyn). And for another, plenty of figures from history who we would consider left wing and/or progressive for their time would be what we would consider outrageously racist today so could easily have been both.

But this isn’t a discussion about eugenics, and I don’t know why you keep coming out with this “right side of history” stuff. It’s not some questionable, arcane social engineering issue, it’s a simple situation that a marginalised minority group would like to be listened to and respected in the choices they make about their own lives.

The concern - indeed, your concern - seems to be that some trans people and activists have been too forthright about demanding this. But then on the other hand you have famous, rich and powerful people labelling them as paedophiles, perverts, mentally ill, wannabe rapists, sporting cheats who just want to beat women and so on, and taking active steps to remove them from society. Do you think that might bug people who, for the vast majority of this small group, just want to live the life they feel is right for them and receive relevant healthcare (if they choose to) without being constantly labelled as criminals or freaks?

And do you notice a pattern? It’s almost always trans women that are the issue. Never trans men. And the simple reason why is it is far easier for a trans man to pass - they take testosterone, grow a beard, put on muscle. Some trans women though may have much more of an issue looking feminine enough, and I’m convinced it’s this laughably juvenile “eww!” factor that upsets people like Rowling and Linehan so much - because what they always have in mind is a big burly bearded bloke with lipstick on, sat in a changing room leering at people from behind a curtain, and that’s what they see for anyone even remotely not fitting their template. It’s why they have an issue with masculine-featured cis women, and why anti-trans wankers always come out with “we can tell”. It’s designed to intimidate people into hiding and being ashamed for the *viewer’s* comfort. And it is cowardly and pathetic.

And as a stereotype, the hulk in lipstick is as inaccurate, dated and stereotypical as depicting all gay men like Boris Johnson’s tank-topped bum boys bullshit. And you know who also used to be labelled as paedos and perverts and made to feel ashamed? Gay people. Do you think Stonewall or repealing article 28 is “the wrong side of history”? Because a hell of a lot of people did, and it turned out they were just fearful, backwards old gammons and none of their prophecies of doom came to pass.

The oft-cited fear of men in women’s places is frankly absurd too, because men who want to abuse women and children don’t need special permission to be monsters. They don’t need to pretend to be trans and dress up. Instead, they’re hiding in plain sight as priests, or youth leaders, or tv stars, or politicians (often right wing, but not exclusively so). But rather than tackle actual issues in society that lead men to behave this way and let men get away with it, let’s just focus on some boogey(wo)man and recycle all the shit from the 70s and 80s that LGB people went through.

It’s all so very fucking tiresome.

[The Weeping Angel]

I was pointing out how they were plenty of left-wingers who believed and endorsed eugenics of course a lot of them had racist views, but many of them did see eugnenics as the means to construct a better society saying that doesn't make me naive or barking. Here's what Keynes had to say about eugenics.

https://mises.org/mises-wire/keynes-eug ... e6_i1i5b53

[The Weeping Angel]

But this isn’t a discussion about eugenics, and I don’t know why you keep coming out with this “right side of history” stuff. It’s not some questionable, arcane social engineering issue, it’s a simple situation that a marginalised minority group would like to be listened to and respected in the choices they make about their own lives.

You can thank Lord Kobel he was fond of that phrase. But to me it sums up how trans activists and their allies really fail to try and win people over. That phrase to me comes across as arrogant it's "we're right and you're wrong, bow down before the righteousness of our cause". Go and look at those numbers I posted those are not good.

[Crabcakes]

Oh well, it’s not like there’s a much much closer analogue from history where a human rights cause was derided by many who we’d consider progressive for the time, where politicians of the day used the cause and its supporters as political footballs, where the people attempting to make their case often resorted to extreme measures (measures well above and beyond anything any trans activist has done), where supporters were routinely verbally and physically abused and where the ringleaders of the movement were almost all exclusively dreadful people with questionable traits, but the cause itself is now universally accepted* as the right thing. Because that’d be really inconvenient. Especially as at the time they didn’t have “the numbers” either.

*except by arseholes like the MAGA movement and hardcore evangelicals. Funnily enough, the exact same people who really hate trans folk.

[Crabcakes]

I think we can put this one to bed now.

Rowling is a bigot.

[The Weeping Angel]

Good thing Rowling's a billionaire because she should charge rent given how she seems to be living in his head. Duncan neglects to mention that this was a response to India Willoughby, a former GB newsreader who has form for saying bigoted things herself. As for Dr Upton this article by Sonia Sodha sets out the background of the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -colleague

Some things are plain common sense. Female employees should not be expected to share changing rooms with male colleagues. They shouldn’t be socially shamed into undressing around them, or being in spaces where male colleagues get undressed in front of them.

There is a host of principles and evidence around women’s privacy, dignity and safety to be marshalled in support of this – the charity Sex Matters lays them out – but most people don’t need to read accounts of how uncomfortable mixed-sex changing facilities make some women feel, or statistics showing that voyeurism and exposure are two of the most common male sex crimes, to understand how wrong this would be.

But not managers at NHS Fife, it would seem. Despite the law of the land enshrining that commonsense insight – that employers are obliged to provide separate changing facilities for their male and female employees – female staff working for this Scottish health board have been expected to share changing rooms with a male doctor who identifies as female. One nurse, Sandie Peggie, has brought an employment tribunal claim for harassment, sex discrimination and victimisation against the board, following her suspension after she raised concerns.

Peggie shared her account of what happened with the tribunal last week. She initially talked to her line manager on a couple of occasions, including after Dr Beth Upton, the male doctor in question, walked into the room while she was partially undressed. Her manager said she passed on the nurse’s concerns but didn’t get anywhere; Peggie said that if she were put in that position again, she would need to address it with Upton. This is what happened a few months later, when she found herself needing to use the changing room after heavy menstrual bleeding.

[Crabcakes]

Absolutely none of that changes the fact Rowling said what she said. Because she would have said it anyway - and indeed has about people who have done and said nothing whose only ‘crime’ is being trans (or who she perceives as trans). That’s the common denominator in who she decides to attack.

If you’re adamant about the damage that trans activists who go too far do, then you can surely accept the damage that a billionaire with global reach can do in the other direction, and how they are at least as toxic.

[Andy McDandy]

Also the phrase "living rent free in X's head", can we not?

Famous name uses public profile to boost a cause.

People disagree.

"Oh, you're obsessed with them!"

[Youngian]

If you're pre-op TS in feminine garb you probably fear homophobes in the men's changing room giving you a beating over women you wave your wanger at in their changing rooms. Doesn't make it right to dismiss women's objections to this as bigots.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

If you're pre-op TS in feminine garb you probably fear homophobes in the men's changing room giving you a beating over women you wave your wanger at in their changing rooms. Doesn't make it right to dismiss women's objections to this as bigots.

I have absolutely no idea what this means...

[Youngian]

Pre op TS (pre operation transsexual) means someone who identifies as transgender but hasn't yet undergone gender affirming surgery. While you still have a dick is it too much to ask to stay out of women's changing rooms and toilets?

[Malcolm Armsteen]

The pre-op TS was the only part I understood. I really don't get what you are trying to say.

[kreuzberger]

The whole changing-room issue is fraught with gordian knots. "Pre-op" usually means that those transitioning to women are proudly sporting an impressive rack and those going in the opposite direction might well have opted for the relatively simple process of breast removal, while having a five o'clock shadow of which they are equally proud. Should these people be assigned the changing rooms of their birth gender?

Adopting these uniquely male or female characteristics is a huge and significant element of transitioning, which really should not be underestimated.

Chins and chests aside, the pubic region need not be front and centre of getting in or out of a change of clothes. Maybe someone could invent a special shielding device for people who are neither Swedish nor German; they could call it a towel.