[safe_timber_man]

We can disagree and that's fine. Don't be a dick about it though, eh?

[Abernathy]

Eh? Who’s “being a dick” ?

[safe_timber_man]

I thought you were quoting what I said and was being sarcastic along with a little wink. Maybe I misread it?

[Oboogie]

For me, he's summed up by the photo of him being escorted away from the South African consulate.

Just a reminder: this wasn't the fascist pigs clamping down. It was the ANC in actually finally productive talks with the RSA government and not needing captain twatbasket with his fucking megaphone outside.

That photo is usually mislabelled as Jezza protesting against Apartheid. This is simply incorrect. He was actually taking part in a City of London Anti-Apartheid Group picket protesting against the ANC who they considered to be sellouts because they sought to end Apartheid by holding talks with the government.

[Crabcakes]

But just on a base human level, I think he is a kind man that wanted to help people, how ever unrealistic that was.

Not trying to be an arse either, but I think the problem with Jez is that *he* thinks he is a kind man who wants to help people, but because he can never see further than burnishing his own credentials he doesn’t realise when his ‘kindness’ results in harm, and he’s got too big an ego to listen to anyone who might advise him of such. He’ll stand on 1000 pickets in the pouring rain for your fight for higher wages, and will give 1000 speeches for free (and be delighted to be seen to be doing so), but when he was leader and could have actually done something such as throw his support behind the remain campaign and, say, turn up at even one rally? He was off attending conferences that weekend. And inconveniently, every other weekend there was one.

He’s a man who couldn’t make an effort for the greater good, even for a moment, when it wasn’t good for *him*. That’s who he really is.

[safe_timber_man]

Understandable. But he was never going to throw any weight behind the Remain campaign because he wasn't a Remainer. He wasn't honest about it but it was clear he never was going to be vocal about remaining. He was a Brexiter, not necessarily for the same motives as the other Brexiters, but he was transparent as fuck about it. I agree, he has a massive ego and he was a pain in the arse, to say the least. I guess I'm just viewing him as a person compared the so many of the current politicians who are just genuinely deeply unpleasant human beings. I don't think he is.

And Abers, sorry for getting snippy with you last night, it'd been a bad day!

[Samanfur]

Has anyone else here read All Out War by Tim Shipman?

It's his account of the Brexit campaign, and it's damning if even half of the insider accounts from the people around Corbyn're true.

[Abernathy]

Has anyone else here read All Out War by Tim Shipman?

It's his account of the Brexit campaign, and it's damning if even half of the insider accounts from the people around Corbyn're true.

Yes. Only one chapter on Corbyn amidst all the other shit, but by god, damning is scarcely the word. No wonder he called for Article 50 to be triggered the morning after the fucking referendum result.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

I've just gone back and re-read that chapter.

Fuuuuck....

[Andy McDandy]

Anyone fancy giving a quick precis?

[Malcolm Armsteen]

• Corbyn was always a Leaver, even when others changed. 'His ideas hadn't changed since he was 15'.
• He was surrounded by advisers such as Seamus Milne who were Leavers. They interfered with messaging.
• Labour policy (and most union policies) were Remain, so he had to be coerced to support party policy. Which he did with bad grace and sulkiness.
• He did not engage in the Remain campaign. He didn't even turn up to the campaign launch. He remained uncommitted.
• Refused to co-operate with other Remainers (eg Cameron) which meant a weak and underfunded campaign.
• His organisation of the shadow cabinet was a shambles and many talented people refused to serve.
• The politics behind the Labour campaign were inept to the point of incompetence.

Best if you read it - only £2.99 on Kindle.

[Crabcakes]

This is precisely why I think he isn’t a good man. Someone who’ll weep over your lost livelihood and wrecked life in front of the media but not lift a finger to prevent it behind closed doors is not your friend.

[Abernathy]

Understandable. But he was never going to throw any weight behind the Remain campaign because he wasn't a Remainer. He wasn't honest about it but it was clear he never was going to be vocal about remaining. He was a Brexiter, not necessarily for the same motives as the other Brexiters, but he was transparent as fuck about it. I agree, he has a massive ego and he was a pain in the arse, to say the least. I guess I'm just viewing him as a person compared the so many of the current politicians who are just genuinely deeply unpleasant human beings. I don't think he is.

I think what you are attempting to do is set aside the egregious awfulness of Corbyn as a political leader and focus in on his essential goodness and kindness as a human being.

I don't think that is actually possible to do. His stubbornly catastrophic period as Labour leader led the party down a very nearly terminal political cul-de-sac at a crucial time for the UK and effectively condemned us all to ten more years of chaotic and damaging Tory government (and that's without even considering Brexit) than we would otherwise have had to suffer. Basically, good, kind men do not generally do that kind of thing.

And Abers, sorry for getting snippy with you last night, it'd been a bad day!

I'm preparing myself to forgive you *

* Uncle Monty, Withnail & I.

[Crabcakes]

Saw a great quote on threads about US progressives (who failed to show up to protest a Trump rally), but it could equally apply to Corbyn and chums:

Progressive organizations focus on side quests and pretend they have the moral high ground, but liberals and unions actually do the work to save the world from fascism

[Tubby Isaacs]

Typically good long thread from Big Dan. Summarises my big frustration with Corbynism. European-style social spending with only people on way over average earnings paying extra is a circle literally no other country has ever managed to do.

You have to start tax rises much further down the income scale than that, which is something the SNP have done, in fairness to them. The only problem is that they're currently doing much worse than they should be in polls given how high support for Yes is.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

We really need to take back the agenda on tax and properly explain what taxes are used for, and how we all benefit from them.

"If you want to cut tax, which infrastructure or services are you willing to go without? Police? Armed forces? Education? Health?"

or

"Let's look at why there are unmended potholes in your street, or why you are waiting in A&E"

[Abernathy]

Too true. The Tories’ obsessive fetishisation of tax cuts “to give your family financial security” is very damaging, as well as being quite wrong. There’s much more to personal financial security than a few quid off your tax bill.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Trouble is that taxes aren't low by historical British standards, and that lots of people have very high housing costs. People do sort of understand the effect of this, and say they'd pay more tax for services. Except when they say that, they don't mean that they'd pay much more. This is why political parties aren't keen to raise taxes.It's not because they've been corrupted by neoliberalism.

[Killer Whale]

Trouble is that taxes aren't low by historical British standards

Can anyone point me to a decent explainer that can tell me why this should be the case at the same time as there being no money for basic services? I don't need an idiots' guide - I studied Economics to degree level, albeit as part of a politics degree, just something reasonably concise and readable.

[Youngian]

Higher inflation and fall in Sterling’s value has made public spending more expensive while the economy and living standards continue to stagnate. A loss of international confidence then makes the debt more expensive to service. This is all down to QE, Covid, Ukraine war and nothing to do with Brexit, oh no.