[Andy McDandy]

I've seen many people have that view. Being only 14 at the time, all I remember is my parents watching the footage and saying "Rather presumptuous of him, who does he think he is?".

What was it about the rally that alerted you to the incoming reality?

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Sheffield Rally probably made no difference. The polls were off all the way through the campaign. Same as in 2015.

[davidjay]

I still say that one of the reasons for the 1992 result was that the weather on polling day was good. People were consequently happier and more inclined to "give them another chance ".

[Youngian]

Or suspected Kinnock was a waffling windbag not up to the job.

[The Weeping Angel]

Steve Richards pointed out that even if there was no rally Labour would have lost the election and points out that it was praised by the likes of John Cole.

[Abernathy]

Steve Richards pointed out that even if there was no rally Labour would have lost the election and points out that it was praised by the likes of John Cole.

I know. The point I was making was that the Sheffield rally was the point at which we realised we’d lost.

As events of that type go, and Neil’s overexcitement aside, it wasn’t that bad. I do think that in retrospect, however, the message it sent out was one of premature hubris. And it’s one of the main reasons why Starmer’s team today will hear of nothing like it.

[Abernathy]

Further to Neil, I recollect a TV interview, possibly Newsnight or such like, featuring Sir Dickie Attenborough and Neil Kinnock. Attenborough, in typical Dickie fashion, had waxed lyrical and emotionally about what Neil had done for the Labour Party, tearfully thanking him for saving the party. Neil seemed fairly emotional himself and genuinely moved by this.

I’ve tried to find it as a clip on that there Interweb, but without success.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Or suspected Kinnock was a waffling windbag not up to the job.

He did come across a bit like that, but as he showed at the European Commission,,he was up to the job.

[Abernathy]

What was it about the rally that alerted you to the incoming reality?

I’m unsure, really. It was more of a feeling in the bones. The press coverage of the “well aaaaalright !” moment didn’t help.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Richard Murphy here, offering Labour the benefits of his "corporate finance" knowledge, I don't believe the £90bn figure, but whatever the figure is, it isn't "nothing". I presume this is some vague "save more than it costs" stuff. In corporate finance, firms do indeed borrow lots of money and buy stuff. They pay for his by various means, including putting up prices a lot and sacking a lot of people.

By the way "work with the Tories" was Reed saying "we'll work with the Tories to ban bonuses for poor performance on sewage". Not quite what Richard was implying here- though given the Tories are the Government, I'm not sure what Richard suggests they should do.

It sounds like it would be cheaper just to fix the bits that need fixing rather than buy the whole thing and then fix the bits that need fixing. But that's just me.

[kreuzberger]

In corporate finance, firms do indeed borrow lots of money and buy stuff. They pay for his by various means, including putting up prices a lot and sacking a lot of people.

You missed out the stage where they shovel fatbergs of cash to shareholders and as bonuses for the failing C-Suite.

[Tubby Isaacs]

There is that but they get the money for that by doing stuff way beyond what would be tolerated in this situation.

We can borrow the money if we want, but the idea that it costs "nothing" is the issue for me. It's the same politics as "efficiency savings"".

[kreuzberger]

The only "doing stuff way beyond what would be tolerated in this situation" is the criminally negligent, ecocidal assault on the nation's waterways and coastal waters. If only there was a business case for not doing that and when the Undertones were doing farewell tours.

If anyone claims to have a coherent argument for keeping a broken utility in the hands of casino bankers, I am all ears.

[Andy McDandy]

Eminent domain and what the fuck were they thinking back then.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The only "doing stuff way beyond what would be tolerated in this situation" is the criminally negligent, ecocidal assault on the nation's waterways and coastal waters. If only there was a business case for not doing that and when the Undertones were doing farewell tours.

If anyone claims to have a coherent argument for keeping a broken utility in the hands of casino bankers, I am all ears.

You don't have to buy something to stop it doing bad stuff. Or you can own something (like we own roads in Herefordshire) and it can be shit. However you do it, buying a water company isn't free.

In that bit you quote I was talking generally- dividends, corporate waste on flashy shit is paid for by doing stuff with prices and agressive cost cutting. If you apply that to a state owned water company, then it won't be doing that stuff. So the dividends aren't really there to be saved. Something where there would be a saving is on the interest that some of these companies are paying. I'd like to see regulation of that.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Eminent domain and what the fuck were they thinking back then.

At the original privatisation? Jonathan Portes writes about it here. Feel good politics essentially.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... led-regime

[The Weeping Angel]

Crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n-gaza-war

The anguish and anger felt by Muslims in the UK over the Israel-Gaza war could spell trouble for Labour at the next election. An opinion poll carried out in November by Savanta found strong support for Labour among Muslim voters, with 64% backing the party. But more than 40% said Keir Starmer’s response to the war had made them less likely to vote Labour, while 20% said it had made them more likely to do so. One in three Muslim voters rated the conflict among their top three issues in deciding who to vote for.

In Ilford North, local activists have selected a candidate to challenge the 5,198 majority of the shadow health secretary Wes Streeting specifically on Labour’s position on the Gaza war. Nearly a quarter of the population is Muslim.

In Walsall, where 11.3% of the population is Muslim, eight Labour councillors who resigned from the party over the issue in November are considering putting up a candidate at the general election.

This month Ammar Anwar, a Labour councillor in Kirklees, Yorkshire, and a lifelong member of the party, announced his resignation in tears and with a Palestinian flag draped around his neck. Eleven Labour councillors in Burnley resigned from the party in November, 10 resigned in Oxford, eight quit in Blackburn, and there have been others.

[mattomac]

The problem is they seem to forget Labour is in opposition.

What clout does it have, it’s in opposition in Israel too, the situation is now a mess.

There is a party in power with far more clout, that is in power that its natural allies are in power and yet they disappeared for 4 weeks.

Would they want them back for another term?

Also evidently didn’t read the Labour amendment on it.

[The Weeping Angel]

The problem is they seem to forget Labour is in opposition.

What clout does it have, it’s in opposition in Israel too, the situation is now a mess.

There is a party in power with far more clout, that is in power that its natural allies are in power and yet they disappeared for 4 weeks.

Would they want them back for another term?

Also evidently didn’t read the Labour amendment on it.

Well there acting on it

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... aza-stance

Keir Starmer’s office has begun polling British Muslim voters amid growing concern in senior Labour ranks about the damage done to their core vote by the row over the party’s position on the Middle East.

Labour sources have told the Guardian that the party is running polls and holding focus groups around the country after senior officials became concerned they were losing support among one of their staunchest bases of support.

The outreach effort is just one aspect of how the Middle East crisis has transformed the party in the last few months. MPs who care about the issue have established new groups to lobby Starmer, while the leader’s office has been forced to rethink how it communicates with parts of the party who say they have long been ignored.

[The Weeping Angel]

Well this is provoking fury