[Oboogie]

Doesn't mean that they objected to any of that. Almost certainly what I mentioned before.

The only clue I have to what they are thinking is what they told us.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Ah, sorry, get you. I presume they think that the tweet made it look like they agreed on everything. I'm not surprised they weren't happy with that impression. He ought to have acknowledged there were disagreements, I think. Looks like social media YTS boy came up with that tweet strategy.

[Tubby Isaacs]

37 MPs threatened to resign, apparently.

[Boiler]

It's Fabric Cunt.

Ignore.

[Yug]

What I would like to know is:

Who is doing the shit-stirring?
Why are they shit-stirring?
And if their shit-stirring is successful and they manage to topple Starmer, do they really think they're going to get Corbyn back in the Big Chair?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I doubt anyone thinks Corbyn is coming back. There's genuine very strong disagreement which has to be acknowledged. But there's also utterly unscrupulous "anti-Zionists" who don't care at all that Jewish schools have had to close. And there'll be far worse people than that- some of them went after Galloway in 2005, and not even the Galloway of today is anything like as bad as them There've been a few sightings of this stuff at the Palestine march, but I reckon they're not particularly bothered with standing with famiies and humanists.

[The Weeping Angel]

The crisis is still ongoing.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1fb9 ... 715343ca1f

Sir Keir Starmer has failed to heal the rift within his party over the Israel and Gaza conflict and is said to have “made matters worse” after comments that left Muslim voters feeling “gaslit” and “betrayed”.

Starmer and Angela Rayner, his deputy, spoke to about 12 Muslim MPs and peers on Wednesday to calm tensions inflamed by an interview in which Starmer appeared to say Israel had the right to cut off power and water to Gaza.

The Labour leader has since clarified that he was referring to Israel’s right to defend itself, but the widely shared clip — detailed below and described as “toxic” by one MP — has prompted thousands of emails from Muslim voters, councillor resignations and public letters from those still representing the party.

Up to four shadow ministers are on resignation watch, sources said, including Sarah Owen, the shadow faith minister, and Rachel Hopkins, the shadow Cabinet Office minister, with a “real operation” under way to keep them on side. “There’s a real concern that if we lost a shadow minister, for example, that all of the others come under real pressure,” one member of Starmer’s senior team said.

The Labour leader’s spokesman had earlier declined to say whether Yasmin Qureshi, a shadow equalities minister, would be disciplined for failing to toe the party line after calling for a ceasefire during prime minister’s questions.

Starmer attempted to quell concerns by backing the suggestion of “humanitarian pauses”, which are expected to be proposed by the United States. However, he fell short of backing a full ceasefire, which an increasing number of his MPs are calling for. Some 150 Muslim Labour councillors wrote to Starmer and Rayner on Wednesday urging them to back an “immediate ceasefire” in Gaza.

A source told The Times it was “unacceptable” that the party would not back a ceasefire. They said people were “still feeling gaslit” by his comments on the radio station LBC, adding that the saga had “hurt the Muslim community deeply, they feel betrayed”. They suggested the meeting — which was attended by Shabana Mahmood, the shadow justice secretary and Afzal Khan, the shadow justice minister — had “made matters worse” and was “tokenistic”.

People who attended the meeting with Muslim parliamentarians said Starmer had told them the position was “under constant review”. One MP present said: “There was a consensus on the point that a ceasefire needs to be called. I don’t think he’s quite there yet. He said that things are moving, things are evolving, we’re already on the pause idea but we have to build consensus.”

Others said that it had been helpful way to express their views and those of their constituents, and questioned how realistic it would be to expect Hamas to agree to a ceasefire.

“Everybody who was there had a chance to get things off their chest,” one MP said, with the mood described as “quite civilised” but “quite firm”. Sources close to Starmer said it had been “constructive” and expected more meetings to be held.

Khalid Mahmood, the MP for Birmingham Perry Barr, said he thought the meeting had been “very good” and said: “This is the first time we called for a meeting, we got a meeting, and basically explained what we were experiencing on the street, our constituents and our councillors were going through and how do we start to move forward.”

In a statement after the meeting the Labour leader said: “It’s clear the amount of aid and essential utilities getting into Gaza is completely insufficient to meet the humanitarian emergency on the ground.”

He said aid deliveries need to be “regular, fast and safe” and he welcomed measures expected from the US to propose “humanitarian pauses” to help aid through.

He added: “In the long term there can only be a political solution to this crisis which is why we need to restart the hard work of talks for a two-state solution of a viable Palestinian state alongside a safe and secure Israel.”

Starmer’s spokesman denied there was a rift with Anas Sarwar, the Scottish Labour leader who has suggested Israel is breaking international law

Ferrari: Sir Keir Starmer, what is a proportionate response [to the Hamas attacks on October 7] in your view?

Starmer: I think the first thing I have to say is responsibility lies with Hamas. This is cold-blooded murder of men, women, even children. It is terrorism and Israel has the right to defend herself. And there are ongoing situations with hostages and Israel has the right to do everything that it can to get those hostages back safe and sound. And therefore, I’m very clear, Israel must have that, does have that right to defend herself. And Hamas bears responsibility.

NF: A siege is appropriate? Cutting off power, cutting off water, Sir Keir?

KS: I think that Israel does have that right. It is an ongoing situation. Obviously, everything should be done within international law. But I don’t want to step away from the sort of core principles that Israel has a right to defend herself and Hamas bears responsibility for these terrorists. And I would call on all responsible states, particularly Middle East responsible states, to call this out for what it is and to stand with the world in condemning, utterly condemning, these actions by Hamas.

[Crabcakes]

The reporting in the Guardian is, you’ll be unsurprised to hear, somewhat less soon and gloom.

[The Weeping Angel]

The reporting in the Guardian is, you’ll be unsurprised to hear, somewhat less soon and gloom.

Is it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... led-better

A statement from the centre said: “Members of the community directly challenged Keir on his statements made on the Israeli government’s right to cut food, electricity and water to Gaza, warranting war crimes, as well as his failure to call for an immediate ceasefire.”

More than 40 Labour MPs and 250 councillors from areas including Birmingham, Blackburn, Glasgow, Barking and Dagenham have urged Starmer to back an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. Last week at least 20 councillors were reportedly intending to resign over the issue.

A prominent frontbencher told the Guardian on Wednesday they had considered quitting as they felt the anger from the Muslim community towards Labour “had not come out of the blue”.

“The big point is you have to fight from the inside. The feeling is strong on the lack of Palestinian empathy. There has always been broad support for Palestinians on our benches, the anger has not come out of the blue. Even during the Iraq war, the levels of anger on our benches were not as bad as this,” they told the Guardian.

One MP said they were concerned the damage had already been done to relations with the Muslim community and that “any change in stance now is just damage control”.

[mattomac]

I give up.

Let them have another 5/10/15 years of Tory government.

[The Weeping Angel]

I'm really worried that this is going to spiral out of control. To think less than a week ago we won two by-elections and now it feels that the party is in meltdown.

[Dalem Lake]

I'm really worried that this is going to spiral out of control. To think less than a week ago we won two by-elections and now it feels that the party is in meltdown.

Really? It doesn't look like it from the outside, it looks more like some shit-stirring is going, primarily by those wanting to give Starmer a bloody nose. I'd laugh if he called all those threatening to resign bluffs and let them be on their way.

[Andy McDandy]

"Last week reportedly"?

We're into Dorries immediate resignation territory.

[Youngian]

I'm really worried that this is going to spiral out of control. To think less than a week ago we won two by-elections and now it feels that the party is in meltdown.

Most voters think Palestine is an emperor in Star Wars. The age group that watched bombs blowing up every week on TV for three decades in Northern Ireland still can’t even accurately draw the United Kingdom’s border with Ireland, have no clue what the GFA is or even if Ireland is a sovereign state. And they’re supposed to be the wise elders.

What is being less noticed is the rock solid support for Israel on the Tory benches. The Conservatives historically have always had a large Arabist contingent in its ranks. Who’d complain that Thatcher thought Sinai is the plural of sinus.

[Boiler]

I give up.

Let them have another 5/10/15 years of Tory government.

But sadly, "them" includes "us".

[Crabcakes]

The reporting in the Guardian is, you’ll be unsurprised to hear, somewhat less soon and gloom.

Is it?

I’d argue yes. It’s objective, certainly, but it acknowledges that things could definitely have been done better but that discussions were productive, that the leadership were listening and that issues had been raised that can now be addressed. Reading the Times, you’d be expecting mass resignations and clamouring for Starmer to step down. In reality, no MP has resigned and he’s acknowledging mistakes were made.

It’s off of the front page* of all papers bar the Sun, and their comment take is he needs to do better if he’s going to be PM - and that in itself is a clear message Uncle Rupert’s mob have conceded he will be PM. If there was a genuine issue here in terms of the leadership collapsing and mass resignations, it would still be everywhere in the client media.

As long as Starmer’s top team really are listening and take steps to remedy things/don’t make any more errors, I suspect this will rapidly become a non-story.

*in terms of websites

[Malcolm Armsteen]

This seems to be being driven by Shaista Aziz, ex-councillor, still a Corbynite it seems.
Being pressed on Sky News (by Wilf) who has confronted her with Starmer's actual words. In fact he is taking a very sceptical stance towards her. He's not convinced.

She 'disagrees' about what Starmer actually said because she supports Palestine (uncritically of course).

She has a voice (Guardian journalist and 'stand up comedian') and she is using it mendaciously, in my opinion, because Starmer 'isn't supporting' Palestine enough. In other words, he isn't taking sides, her sides...

[Yug]

The Trots don't like winning, do they?

Four astounding by-election results - Selby, Tamworth, Mid Bedfordshire, and Rutherglen, with another upset for the Tories in Uxbridge where they turned an extremely safe Tory seat into a extremely shaky Tory marginal. Consistently polling the same distance from the Tories as Corbyn did - only above the Tories, not below them like Labour under Corbyn was, and on track to win the next GE outright.

For a thick Trot, what's not to resent?

[Andy McDandy]

Fear of responsibility, of putting money where the mouth is, of making accounts balance, of delivering for people. You can't say "If only we were in power" if you are the ones in power.

[Oboogie]

This seems to be being driven by Shaista Aziz, ex-councillor, still a Corbynite it seems.
Being pressed on Sky News (by Wilf) who has confronted her with Starmer's actual words. In fact he is taking a very sceptical stance towards her. He's not convinced.

She 'disagrees' about what Starmer actually said because she supports Palestine (uncritically of course).

She has a voice (Guardian journalist and 'stand up comedian') and she is using it mendaciously, in my opinion, because Starmer 'isn't supporting' Palestine enough. In other words, he isn't taking sides, her sides...

Shaista Aziz was also on Newsnight disputing that Starmer said Israel had to obey international law in the clip they'd just played where he said precisely that.