[kreuzberger]

I know that none of us want this thread. By Jove, we have not been deprived of opportunities to start it beforehand.

Someone had to, I suppose.

This "beyond" bit is much closer to home. Yesterday, we had the gerbil-faced monster threatening to ban Palestinian flags, and now the Manc Plod are using catch-all legal devices to implement this.

This intellectually bereft rush to conflate Hamas with Palestine, the Palestinian flag, and Palestinians is just ignorant, knee-jerk fascism on steroids.

There, as a bit of a Jew anyway, I suppose I have started a shit-fest...

[Yug]

While the fourth estate seem to have completely forgotten about Ukraine, I am heartened to see they are reporting on the Israel - Hamas war, not the Israel - Palestine war. At least they can get something right occasionally.

[Tubby Isaacs]

You can't expect me to have time for this topic. I'm on the other thread moaning about some obscure private schools bloke who I tenuously associated with Greg Hands.

We certainly have avoided this, haven't we?

[Abernathy]

We certainly have avoided this, haven't we?

Indeed. “If it’s too hard, I can’t understand it.”

Such a complex and multi-faceted, indeed, intractable, problem. As an inveterate lifelong leftie, I’ve long felt under pressure to pick a side. I have an instinctive distaste for the state of Israel, particularly because of their penchant for electing nasty quasi-fascist twats such as Netanyahu, and their appalling treatment of Palestinian people, but I also have a profound sympathy for the Jewish people and their suffering and persecution historically, not least in the last century. Similarly, I consider the way that Palestinians have been treated, and continue to be treated, by Israel,to be absolutely intolerable, and understand and sympathise with their case in respect of land rights unlawfully taken from them in the name of Israeli expansionism. I reject and denounce Hamas unequivocally.

So I cannot pick a side. There are grievances and frustrations galore on both sides, and a case to be argued for both sides. It seems that the Palestinian and Israeli peoples may be incapable of co-existence in the same geographical milieu.

I’m strongly inclined to conclude that the only answer is to start again, with the objective of creating a two state alternative. That sounds unrealistic, but it’s all I’ve got.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

What he said.

[Abernathy]

[Bones McCoy]

I concluded long ago that disputes like this aren't going to be solved by anything I can do.
I look on in a mixture of despair and horror.

A relatively trivial domestic observation of that Braverman appears to have direct command over Greater Manchester Police.
That can't be a good thing for policing by consent.

[The Weeping Angel]

Yeah about that arrest.

[Youngian]

I know the attack marks the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war but it doesn’t explain why an operation of this scale is taking place. Is Iran providing the means to wage it in the light of the Israel-Saudi peace deal? The Palestinian conflict has hardly registered among Sunni neighbours in recent years and that more than anything inflames passion in the Muslim world against Israel. In the space of a week we have moved from Iran looking more isolated in the region to even non-Arab Turkey sending fighter jets to Tehran.
And what did Hamas think Israel’s response to this attack was going to be? Not peace, love and flowers but exactly what they are doing by inflicting further misery on the Gaza population. If Israel did the opposite and opened the gates of that festering open air prison, I doubt the consequences could be much worse than their present course of action.

[Bones McCoy]

Another regrettable domestic effect.

Some of the little truth we still enjoy in public discourse flies out of the window.
Greater Manchester Police may eventually explain their action, or a case may be brought to court.

Meanwhile we have Greg Hands and the ob at Conservativehome acting like Putin's publicity men.
It's all the fault of Zombie Corbyn.
And the "current lot" haven't condemned it properly.

[Killer Whale]

Yeah about that arrest.

And in any case, if you can get arrested for waving around a picture of a dead kid at a Sheffield Wednesday match...

[mattomac]

The closest to a position I have is that like Bush I have little time for Netanyahu but he has like Bush the right to protect his country against terrorists like Hamas, I can only hope the safe routes hold out long enough. Governments do not mean people, we should know that only too well.

Reading "Come to the Court and Cry" by Linda Kinstler probably means I'm a little more sympathetic to the actions of Israel's government than I usually am.

It however does seem somewhat a complete failure by Netanyahu and the security services.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Yeah about that arrest.

And in any case, if you can get arrested for waving around a picture of a dead kid at a Sheffield Wednesday match...

Umm...
If you wave a picture of a dead kid who was an icon, a centre of huge affection and a mascot to the opposing team, and laugh and taunt them about his death then I think you might just be provoking a breach of the peace, quite apart from outraging public decency.
Bradley Lowery means a lot to the people of Sunderland and the team and their followers.

Not quite the same thing.

[Crabcakes]

My simplistic take is that it’s a tale of 2 shitty governments who have no interest in negotiation perpetuating a conflict about who has the best imaginary sky beard guy, and as such rights over some old buildings and scrubby desert. Both are locked in a spiral of provocation, retaliation, over/reaction and revenge.

In the meantime, the people they claim to serve are screwed over by both the ‘enemy’ and their own side. Everybody loses except the people who sell bullets, the people who sell punditry and the people who sell simplistic hope for peace that relies on the complete capitulation of one or other side and the complete and wilful ignorance of the atrocities committed by their ‘allies’.

A plague on all of them, and respite for their long-suffering populace.

[Youngian]

Meanwhile we have Greg Hands and the ob at Conservativehome acting like Putin's publicity men.
It's all the fault of Zombie Corbyn.
And the "current lot" haven't condemned it properly.

If OPEC decides to cut production like it did in 1973 to concentrate minds on conflict with the Israelis, you’ll be hearing a much more nuanced narrative from Mr Hands and every other government in the West.
Older readers may recall the NUM’s position after it called its members out; if you can pay the Arabs four times as much for oil you can pay us a decent wage. I doubt Sunak will garner much more sympathy than Heath did if a massive oil price hike happens again.

[kreuzberger]

And in any case, if you can get arrested for waving around a picture of a dead kid at a Sheffield Wednesday match...

That was done with the express intention of causing the kind of upset which would quite easily lead to disorder. Thankfully, that is illegal.

[Abernathy]

My simplistic take is that it’s a tale of 2 shitty governments who have no interest in negotiation perpetuating a conflict about who has the best imaginary sky beard guy, and as such rights over some old buildings and scrubby desert. Both are locked in a spiral of provocation, retaliation, over/reaction and revenge.

In the meantime, the people they claim to serve are screwed over by both the ‘enemy’ and their own side. Everybody loses except the people who sell bullets, the people who sell punditry and the people who sell simplistic hope for peace that relies on the complete capitulation of one or other side and the complete and wilful ignorance of the atrocities committed by their ‘allies’.


A plague on all of them, and respite for their long-suffering populace.

Dead on, crabby one. Particularly in respect of “2 shitty governments” Both Netanyahu and Haniyeh (or whoever the current Hamas front person is) are essentially fascist. The entire scenario embodies the politics of grievance and retribution.

[Spoonman]

And in any case, if you can get arrested for waving around a picture of a dead kid at a Sheffield Wednesday match...

That was done with the express intention of causing the kind of upset which would quite easily lead to disorder. Thankfully, that is illegal.

Though oddly enough holding up A2 to A4 posters of dismembered human embryos doesn't appear to be, in Belfast anyway.

Back to the topic at hand, is it me or have most of those those that just a week ago were either openly posting anti-semetic memes and tropes, dogwhistled them or tried to politically court such bottom feeders, are now touting themselves as massive supporters of the Israeli state & army?

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Without comment:

The world is finally aware that the “Islamic” Republic of Iran have been funding and training the terrorists that attacked Israel. So here are SOME QUESTIONS FOR THE REGIME:

HOW DO YOU EVEN DARE TO SPEAK OUT against Israeli oppression, when 10M Jews, Christians, Bahá’ís and Muslims have left Iran for fear of being killed or meaninglessly executed?

HOW DO YOU DARE TO TRY and align yourselves with an oppressed people, when you’ve raped & slaughtered your own people for the past 44 years?

HOW DO YOU DARE TO SPARK A WAR THAT NO ONE WANTS except a fanatical minority which celebrates the slaughter of Israeli civilians, including hundreds of women & children?

HOW DO YOU DARE DISPLACE 260,000 Palestinians so children continue to be born in Gaza with no prospects other than a choice between misery or death?

NO ONE WANTS more war crimes inflicted on yet more civilians. What is coming is chilling. And it will get worse:
Russia backing the IRI because they’re dependent on the IRGC for military hardware & drones, war in the Ukraine, the US parked in the Mediterranean and Israel fighting Hamas in the south, Hezbollah in the north and potentially the IRI too, it’s a world war that will affect every single one of us.

If we are humanitarians, everyone of us on this platform must call for a cease fire immediately. We know what each side is capable of. Killing more innocent people gets us nowhere other than a fast track to Armageddon.

[Abernathy]

Just about the best assessment of the middle east shitshow that I have yet seen. Djalilli is a real mensch.