[The Weeping Angel]

Absolutely. Plus I recently realised the ‘do you want your daughter/wife to share a toilet with a man in a dress who’s just pretending?’ argument is basically the gender equivalent of a US (or U.K., I suppose) gun advocate demanding you answer the question of whether you would shoot an armed intruder if you had a gun to save a child/spouse. An absurd ‘what if?’ extreme worst case scenario that is vanishingly rare, used to justify behaviour and laws that result in incident after incident in the real world where people are actually harmed.

I'd probably take this point more seriously if people didn't dismiss it out of hand when it has happened as no big deal. Like a former moderator of the old forum did.

[Tubby Isaacs]

See, the SNP bit irritated me rather, not just because Dodds is lying but because of the specific manner in which she's lying. 'Cavalier', as if the GRC reforms were scrawled across a beer mat nigh on closing time rather than proposed, debated and subject to judicial review (twice). And that's before we get to the idea that Sturgeon pushed it primarily as a way of 'picking a fight with Westminster', which is just a recycled right wing talking point.

All of this puts Anas Sarwar in a bit of a bind does it not? I don't know how much consideration London HQ is giving to the branch office North of the border these days, but Scottish Labour did support self-ID (with fewer rebels come the vote than the SNP had if memory serves) and while I've seen both Richard Leonard and Monica Lennon state that nothing has changed in that regard, neither of them is leading the party. Be interesting to see if Sarwar is willing to hold the line or not.

The Scottish bill seems to be so spectacularly unpopular (albeit lots of people not understanding it properly) that I think the SNP aren't going to spend much time on it. Yousaf has challenged the UK Government, but I reckon he'll take "UK Government block Scotland" to the bank all day, and it seems like the UK Government are expected to win the case.

So don't see Sarwar having too many problems. "Way forward for the UK as a whole..." is what you'd expect a unionist to say.

[Abernathy]

I thought that it was worth reading about Graham Linehan's notorious views first hand, And it is :

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/about

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yeah, feminism was stopped in its tracks by Hinge and Bracket.

[Abernathy]

I have some sympathy with Bindel's view here. I watched Celebrity Masterchef with this character on it, and I simply could not see the point. The bloke looks and behaves like no actual woman I've ever seen, and yet Torode and Wallace, and the programme's commentator, consistently referred to him as "her". More bewildering than offensive, I'd say.

[davidjay]

I have some sympathy with Bindel's view here. I watched Celebrity Masterchef with this character on it, and I simply could not see the point. The bloke looks and behaves like no actual woman I've ever seen, and yet Torode and Wallace, and the programme's commentator, consistently referred to him as "her". More bewildering than offensive, I'd say.

I've been looking at "her" Wiki page, cross-referencing it with other drag queens and there's no pronoun consistency; they're referred to as either he, she or they, and in some cases more than one. The trans debate seems to be one of varying yet firm rules that the unwary can often violate unwittingly and often at their peril.

[Boiler]

I'd rather juggle land mines than get embroiled in this matter. It'd be less dangerous.

[satnav]

Much of the media seem to be pushing the line that Graham Linehan was cancelled due to his views but I think it is more likely that his behaviour was the real issue. His obsession with the issue has resulted in the break up of his marriage and his aggressive and intimidating behaviour has seen him banned from Twitter.

I've been a big fan of Linehan's work in the past but it saddens me that he has resorted to extreme measures to put his case across rather than using his comic skills and wit to get his ideas across.

[davidjay]

I'd rather juggle land mines than get embroiled in this matter. It'd be less dangerous.

And a lot easier to understand.

[Boiler]

I'd rather juggle land mines than get embroiled in this matter. It'd be less dangerous.

And a lot easier to understand.

Yes, the "rules" do seem to be somewhat fluid and open to interpretation....

[davidjay]

I'd rather juggle land mines than get embroiled in this matter. It'd be less dangerous.

And a lot easier to understand.

Yes, the "rules" do seem to be somewhat fluid and open to interpretation....

That's just it. My snowflake credentials are otherwise impeccable, yet I find myself wishing they'd all stop being so bloody precious. Everyone on either side of the debate appears to make up their own rules and gets so downright angry if they're broken.

[Bones McCoy]

The Calvinball of modern politics.

I'm another conscientious objector.



About Calvinball:

https://calvinandhobbes.fandom.com/wiki/Calvinball

[Boiler]

And a lot easier to understand.

Yes, the "rules" do seem to be somewhat fluid and open to interpretation....

That's just it. My snowflake credentials are otherwise impeccable, yet I find myself wishing they'd all stop being so bloody precious. Everyone on either side of the debate appears to make up their own rules and gets so downright angry if they're broken.

And that's another thing - the sheer level of vitriol involved. It truly is terrifying. Those who remember Kobel will know what I mean.

[Oboogie]

And a lot easier to understand.

Yes, the "rules" do seem to be somewhat fluid and open to interpretation....

That's just it. My snowflake credentials are otherwise impeccable, yet I find myself wishing they'd all stop being so bloody precious. Everyone on either side of the debate appears to make up their own rules and gets so downright angry if they're broken.

It's important to recognise, prior to commenting, that if you express an opinion in this debate - and it doesn't seem to matter what that opinion is - you are literally worse than Hitler.
Naturally, failure to express an opinion makes you even worse than someone who is worse than Hitler.
I don't know where it goes because there seems to be no room for compromise as the only proffered solutions I'm hearing are of the "You've just got to do what I say" variety.

[kreuzberger]

I don't know where it goes...

It's not so difficult. If you should get to know any one of the vanishing small number of people who are trans, just ask a few questions. I guarantee that you will be more awkward than they are, having lived within a haze of confusion and curiosity since the moment that they realised that this is game-on. And, a lot worse.

If your world view isn't widened and blessed by friends like this, just be respectful and don't engage with anyone who his dead-set on making and proving a point. That is not so difficult, either.

If it is of any interest - and I doubt that it is - the main conversation with my closest trans pal at the moment concerns growing tomatoes on the roof terrace and not where he takes a slash or whether he has a functioning clitoris.

[Oboogie]

I don't know where it goes...

It's not so difficult. If you should get to know any one of the vanishing small number of people who are trans, just ask a few questions. I guarantee that you will be more awkward than they are, having lived within a haze of confusion and curiosity since the moment that they realised that this is game-on. And, a lot worse.

If your world view isn't widened and blessed by friends like this, just be respectful and don't engage with anyone who his dead-set on making and proving a point. That is not so difficult, either.

If it is of any interest - and I doubt that it is - the main conversation with my closest trans pal at the moment concerns growing tomatoes on the roof terrace and not where he takes a slash or whether he has a functioning clitoris.

When I said "I don't know where it goes", I was talking about the debate on the macro level rather than personal.
To my knowledge, I've never met a Trans-person and it's statistically unlikely I ever shall. If I ever did and (even more unlikely) I became aware they were trans, I don't see why on earth I should feel awkward. I imagine we will be too busy dealing with business in hand, whatever that might be, rather than launching into a discussion about the socio-political implications of their self-identity - that would be frankly bizarre and inappropriate as it's none of my business.

I expect that saying that means I am literally worse than Hitler to somebody somewhere.

[davidjay]

Yes, the "rules" do seem to be somewhat fluid and open to interpretation....

That's just it. My snowflake credentials are otherwise impeccable, yet I find myself wishing they'd all stop being so bloody precious. Everyone on either side of the debate appears to make up their own rules and gets so downright angry if they're broken.

And that's another thing - the sheer level of vitriol involved. It truly is terrifying. Those who remember Kobel will know what I mean.

I was trying to think of his name; the one who claimed not to understand until you spelt out EXACTLY what you meant.

[Yug]

That's him! With his constant threats to delete your account if you didn't play his way. I don't know if he actually could, but he did have Moderator rights. The forum feels a much friendlier and safer place without him.

[Andy McDandy]

I know several people who are transitioning/have done so, both FTM and MTF. And some genderfluid. That may be why my attitude is "be reasonable and cubicles".

If you take the identity part of the issue, the stance is that to deny someone the right to live by their chosen identity is on a par with denying rights of worship, or political choice, or any other form of expression. If John becomes Joan, but is forced to legally remain John, it's essentially the state saying that it knows you better than you do yourself. Or that it's forcing an identity upon you.

Or put it this way - if a friend gets married and changes their surname, would you carry on calling them by their old name? It would be quite rude to do so. So why is it OK with people changing their sex?

Where I can see the problem being is not so much mixed toilets and prisons (there are very simple ways to sort those problems, and in any case the problem there is not about trans people but about arseholes of all stripes) but about the role gender plays. A FTM friend (and activist, although they'd prefer advocate) said that their view was that, ideally, gender shouldn't matter unless you were getting intimate with someone, and in any case, any hole's a goal and try it, you might enjoy it, but until that utopia is upon us, gender and identity IS a big deal.

As history shows us, "We just want to live peacefully as [group] on our own terms" often involves quite a lot of struggle.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

I know a few trans women, I don't think it's that uncommon. It's also very little of my business how they make themselves happier.