[Crabcakes]

I think it’s 3 things:
1. Increased visibility - people are more comfortable being who they are (in safe countries, of course)
2. Increased numbers of people coming out because of 1 - simple safety in numbers
3. Increased unwillingness to be silenced and bullied - coming from 1 and 2, but leading to more of 1 and 2.

I think we simply hit a tipping point a while back and it’s now a snowball effect.

[Andy McDandy]

I think Crabcakes has, as usual, hit the nail on the head. A few more observations though:

Back in the 70s, and indeed up until quite recently, transitioning people were seen as objects. Of fascination, derision, pity, but basically objects. While the TV report Abers mentions may have been sympathetic, even insightful, it would likely have been underscored with a message of "thank God you're not them". Depictions in the media tended towards the likes of Hayley Cropper in Corrie - pioneering as Julie Hesmondhalgh's performance was, it still hit a lot of tickboxes - mild, passive, shy, trying to avoid attention. The character grew in time, but at least at the start of her run, that was where we were.

Compare to depictions of gay men and lesbians too - gay men could be camp, they could be tragic cases, perverts, buttoned down and slightly repressed best friends, stylish asexuals, bears, twinks, any number of caricatures. But they could not be straight-presenting and healthily sexually active. Lesbians had to be either Millie Tant or the Fantasy Channel.

This attitude extended to transvestites too, regardless of their sexual preferences. Often, TVs were described in terms of how "convincing" they were, as if satisfying the amusement of predominantly straight and cis people was the benchmark. Nothing wrong with a bloke in a dress, as long as it was always clear it was a bloke in a dress. The attitude is best summed up in a scene from Trainspotting, where Begbie scores with what he thinks is a sexy lady in a nightclub, only to be utterly repulsed when things get serious. Nothing wrong with a permastubbled prop forward hoicking up his dress to take a piss, but anything that sends out mixed signals is a step too far.

So, as trans people began to say that they weren't just here for the straights' amusement, the backlash began. But what about numbers? I'd say there are 2 things at play here - the internet, and Covid. The internet broadens people's horizons (sometimes) and if someone sees that there is a third option, they might take it. As for Covid, at least in the UK people had over a year in relative isolation. That meant a lot of time for self-reflection and working out who you actually were or wanted to be.

[The Weeping Angel]

A couple of weeks ago I met up with a friend and a work colleage who is a lesbian and one of the points she made to me is this, there's a fair number of trans people who have changed gender because their lives are so fucked up they think changing gender will solve all their problems then they realise that it hasn't solved anything and they've ended up regretting it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

That’s a relatively small minority of them, isn’t it? Same argument used with abortion.

[Youngian]

I've been thinking about this issue again. Thinking back to my developing years, which I guess would have been the mid-to-late 1970s and early 1980s, I can recall seeing a TV documentary about a particular individual who was grappling with gender identity issues, and felt that he, (ostensibly) a man (their assigned gender at birth) had been assigned a gender that was a terrible mistake and that (s)he was, in their own words, a "woman trapped in the body of a man". I had never heard of this before, and it seemed to me profoundly strange. I'm somewhat ashamed now to admit that I presumed that this individual was suffering from some mental illness.

Earliest memories of sex change stories was the Sunday People or the Screws revealing disco diva and model Amanda Lear used to be a man. In a sympathetic and informative manner, a bygone tabloid age.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I can remember Amanda Lear presenting a racy show on French TV.

I now feel like Alan Partridge after his flirty interview with Danielle Forest.

[Crabcakes]

A couple of weeks ago I met up with a friend and a work colleage who is a lesbian and one of the points she made to me is this, there's a fair number of trans people who have changed gender because their lives are so fucked up they think changing gender will solve all their problems then they realise that it hasn't solved anything and they've ended up regretting it.

Oof. Sorry, but just because your mate is a lesbian she doesn’t get a free pass on shitty takes. Take ‘trans people’ and ‘changing gender’ out of that, replace it with ‘gay and lesbian’ and ‘choosing a homosexual lifestyle’, read it back to your mate and ask them if it sounds a lot like the bullshit arguments made against gay people in the 1980s. And further, I suspect a lot of that fucked up-ness for a lot of people comes from still suppressing what they really feel they are. Maybe it won’t solve all their problems, but who is anyone else to say that it hasn’t solved one very specific problem?

Will there be some people who are exploring their sexuality who then regret some of the decisions they make? Sure. Is that a reason to gatekeep certain types of sexuality with extra barriers and restrictions before you take someone telling you who they really are at face value? Absolutely not.

[The Weeping Angel]

It isn't a shitty take she was speaking about her personal experience.

[Crabcakes]

It isn't a shitty take she was speaking about her personal experience.

I regret to inform you that claiming sweeping generalisations are justified because they’re ‘personal experience’ is not a great look either.

[Youngian]

I can remember Amanda Lear presenting a racy show on French TV.

I now feel like Alan Partridge after his flirty interview with Danielle Forest.

Also avoid the latest trans debates as I feel like Harry Enfield’s fuddy duddy dad trying to make his gay son and boyfriend welcome but keeps putting his foot in it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Also avoid the latest trans debates as I feel like Harry Enfield’s fuddy duddy dad trying to make his gay son and boyfriend welcome but keeps putting his foot in it.

I just refer to people by their preferred gender and hope for the best. Is there more to it than that?

[safe_timber_man]

Also avoid the latest trans debates as I feel like Harry Enfield’s fuddy duddy dad trying to make his gay son and boyfriend welcome but keeps putting his foot in it.

I just refer to people by their preferred gender and hope for the best. Is there more to it than that?

That's the 'easy' part and generally just being a decent and respectful human being. It's the wider issues that are complicated and can be a bit of a minefield. Shared toilets/changing rooms, trans in male/female sports events etc. For example, I could be respectful and understanding of how people want to be referred to, but at the same time have serious reservations about trans athletes in male/female sports. The latter can get me lumped in with the transphobe's in some peoples eyes. I find it best, for me personally, to stay out of it. Debating it on here is fine as, generally, everyone is mature and intelligent and can have a rational discussion but to get involved in the public debate is exhausting and complicated.

[Philip Marlow]

It may be a product of gadding about in That London, but a fair few of the theatres and debauched gig venues I've been to this year have boasted gender neutral toilets. In some cases there have been cubicles only therein; in others there have been cubicles for those as want 'em and also urinals. I am yet to be ravished while visiting? Should I be taking it personally?

[safe_timber_man]

It may be a product of gadding about in That London, but a fair few of the theatres and debauched gig venues I've been to this year have boasted gender neutral toilets. In some cases there have been cubicles only therein; in others there have been cubicles for those as want 'em and also urinals. I am yet to be ravished while visiting? Should I be taking it personally?

This might be lost in translation - is this a facetious dig at my post or a joke?

[Philip Marlow]

Well surely it can be both? But, to be specific...

If, by 'shared toilets' what you mean is shared between cis and trans then this presents immediate problems. As things stand, legally, trans people are entitled to use the facilities corresponding to their gender identity. Any alteration to this state of affairs will require the introduction of new, explicitly reactionary legislation making it an offence for people to relieve themselves in toilets not corresponding to the gender they were assigned at birth.

Now then...

Allow that this becomes law (and I wouldn't put it past the present shitshow of a government), and now you have additional problems. While the mere change in regulations will be enough to put some people off, there will still be trans women attempting to use the ladies, and trans men minded to use the gents. So, how do you stop them? Toilet attendants (good luck getting cash-strapped local councils to pay for all public conveniences to be manned during opening hours) empowered to demand that anyone they're not sure about bare their genitalia for close inspection? This aggression would not stand man, which would leave you reliant upon the aforementioned principle of intimidation.

Really, people never think about these things,

[davidjay]

And that's without the less serious but nevertheless regular occurrence of women taking over the mens facilities at stadium gigs.

[Andy McDandy]

It's a fugazi. It's only an issue if you think it's an issue.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Well surely it can be both? But, to be specific...

If, by 'shared toilets' what you mean is shared between cis and trans then this presents immediate problems. As things stand, legally, trans people are entitled to use the facilities corresponding to their gender identity. Any alteration to this state of affairs will require the introduction of new, explicitly reactionary legislation making it an offence for people to relieve themselves in toilets not corresponding to the gender they were assigned at birth.

Now then...

Allow that this becomes law (and I wouldn't put it past the present shitshow of a government), and now you have additional problems. While the mere change in regulations will be enough to put some people off, there will still be trans women attempting to use the ladies, and trans men minded to use the gents. So, how do you stop them? Toilet attendants (good luck getting cash-strapped local councils to pay for all public conveniences to be manned during opening hours) empowered to demand that anyone they're not sure about bare their genitalia for close inspection? This aggression would not stand man, which would leave you reliant upon the aforementioned principle of intimidation.

Really, people never think about these things,

Agree about the nastiness of the reactionary laws, which will probably happen, but I think the toilet attendants point is a red herring. It'll just be a law that's rarely possible to enforce, and a low priority for the police. Just like, say, drug possession or driving stupidly fast in Herefordshire.

[safe_timber_man]

I think reducing it to "there's a man in a womens toilet!! " is obviously unhelpful and missing the point. No, that isn't an issue. They're in there to take a shit, just like everyone else. That wasn't the point I was making, at all.

It's when it comes down to women's or men's intimate spaces, such as a gym changing room, for example. A scenario such as a group of women getting undressed after their spin class and sharing the same, often small, space with a pre-op trans women. Would they be intolerant, bigoted or transphobic for being extremely uncomfortable with undressing next to a naked stranger with male genitals? Obviously they're not thinking that hypothetical trans women is in there to 'ravage' their next victim but they're well within their rights to strongly object to it and feel very uncomfortable. Surely that's not unreasonable or bigoted or oppressing trans rights?

Then take the scenario of a genetically male boxer getting in the ring with a genetically female boxer. Or weight lifer, or sprinter, a rugby player etc etc. My point is, is it's an extremely complicated and sensitive issue and it's become way too much of an "us or them" situation in public discourse.

[Andy McDandy]

I think it would be much better if everyone just strutted around nude.