[Tubby Isaacs]

Pretty weak response by Ian Murray for Labour. What is there to negotiate over?! Starmer hasn't seemed prepared for the Tories to block the Bill either. There's dodging traps and looking stupid. You can't get away from this being a huge constitutional moment.

This is laughable stuff from the government. Ample time to have objected before the Bill, which if successful would have led to it being rewritten and made compliant.

[Youngian]

Sturgeon’s capable of holding her own in a constitutional battle but if Starmer got involved the narrative would become about Labour supporting chick boys getting their wangers out in the women’s bogs.
Labour hasn’t the political capital to waste on agendas the Tories want to fight on.

[kreuzberger]

Does this mean that we all have to take a position on the trans issue?

We have two trans friends, (one each way), and I see them as exactly who they are. That's not me being all woke and right-on, it's just observation. So, that is possibly a position of sorts, but one which is born of friendship rather than a hill upon which I would gladly meet my maker.

Cautiously, I would suggest that the don't-give-a-toss tendency are in the majority but, as per usual, it's the Gammon who will hog the mic; it will all be Jocks in Frocks and whining about bogs where the traps have doors on them anyway.

Culture Wars - just another waste of breath and handy diversion for the ghastliest government in living memory.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Government will do that stuff anyway, assuming Labour does GRA reform, as it’s committed to do. I’d say it’s better to have Scotland and Wales already up and running on it.

[Crabcakes]

I think there’s a discussion to be had about the specifics*, but the gist is fine. I suspect any change no matter how small would still have been blocked though on principle, and because of the opportunity it presents for the Tories.


* shortening from 2 years is good, but 3 months to self-certify at a time of life when people are often still exploring their sexuality seems like it could be a little too flexible - and while I don’t fear the alleged horde of perverts waiting to register as women to get into ladies’ loos, I do fear a small number of arseholes like Graham “what the fuck happened to you, man?” Linehan who would take the opportunity to make tabloid-headline friendly trouble and in doing so make life even more miserable for a minority who already get fucked over pretty frequently.

[Tubby Isaacs]

3 months to self-certify at a time of life when people are often still exploring their sexuality seems like it could be a little too flexible

You're saying 3 months is too short for under 18s only, rather than all? I would think that the vast majority know at 16 and anyway, can't they flip back? I think this is actually an advantage in a way, rather than having people get gender reallignment and (in a small number of cases) regretting it.

Ireland's 2015 law is age 18, unless there's court authorisation, so there is precedent for the Starmer view. I wonder if he thinks that if he can take schools out of the equation, then there might be greater support. That would be either clever tactics or cowardice, depending on your point of view.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

The problem here (and I must state my position, that I agree with Starmer) is in your statement "I would think that the vast majority know at 16". A majority might, but a minority would not - all these things are spectra not closed sets. And the law must apply to all, weakest link and all that.

Most 16 year olds are capable of a lot of things that might surprise - but some are woefully immature. Some I wouldn't trust to cross the road on a quiet afternoon.

But by 18 they have achieved majority and there they go, ready or not.

[kreuzberger]

Trans people are considering their gender rather than their sexuality. Our trans man chum is still in to women and so much so that he married one.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The problem here (and I must state my position, that I agree with Starmer) is in your statement "I would think that the vast majority know at 16". A majority might, but a minority would not - all these things are spectra not closed sets. And the law must apply to all, weakest link and all that.

Most 16 year olds are capable of a lot of things that might surprise - but some are woefully immature. Some I wouldn't trust to cross the road on a quiet afternoon.

But by 18 they have achieved majority and there they go, ready or not.

What about the age of consent then? That's 16, not 18. Should we raise that to protect the least mature teenagers?

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Quite possibly.

[Crabcakes]

You're saying 3 months is too short for under 18s only, rather than all? I would think that the vast majority know at 16 and anyway, can't they flip back? I think this is actually an advantage in a way, rather than having people get gender reallignment and (in a small number of cases) regretting it.

I think, like many things, it’s about risk - and the risk of things not working out is lower at 18 than 16. The time limit for 16 is 6 months I believe, which is better. But it’s the entire self-certification at that age that worries me a little. I’m sure for a lot of kids you’re absolutely right that they know what and who they are. For others, there may be some flipping back and forth (and there’s an argument here that some sort of check would be a benefit to them purely from a paperwork avoidance point of view!). But it’s also an age of immense peer pressure on the one hand, and social media being another huge influence on the other.

I can see people finding themselves in scenarios they aren’t sure about but keeping on going because of what *others* are thinking and doing, and there’s now not even so much as a chat before you can apply for a GRC. It doesn’t have to stay full-on psych or medical exam, but I’d just like some sort of safety net to catch those kids who have ended up getting in way too far with something. Particularly as people unsure about their sexuality or those who know something isn’t ‘right’ but aren’t sure quite what that is yet are often particularly vulnerable.

A friend of mine is non-binary, and was forced to come out as such for 2 reasons - a well meant but poorly implemented work policy of having pronouns in emails, and someone in their social group effectively outing them because they were so excited that they were feeling brave enough to come out they couldn’t wait, and more or less announced it for them. They’re OK, but they felt their choice and decision were taken from them and they were rushed into making a big change through the actions and pressure of others.

This was an adult in their mid 30s feeling like they were stuck doing something to someone else’s schedule and because someone else really wanted them to. A 16-year-old being egged on by their mates who they don’t want to let down is going to have even more of a tough time blocking out all the outside noise and thinking for themselves.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Allister Jack has said he can’t explain his reasons to Parliament because it would be too boring. Seriously, he did. Statement to be put out later, when he won’t be around to answer for it.

[Andy McDandy]

I read the Grauniad's transcript - he came across like someone tripping themselves up on the James O'Brien show. A good roll call of knobhead Kipper reject MPs propping him up with supportive statements written by someone else.

[Crabcakes]

Allister Jack has said he can’t explain his reasons to Parliament because it would be too boring. Seriously, he did. Statement to be put out later, when he won’t be around to answer for it.

Pretty much confirms it then - it’s not about a sensible debate on the issues. It’s about opposing for the sake of power and getting the supporters fired up about boogeymen who want to turn their children into perverts.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Apparently he's now published it and is taking questions. Quite why he couldn't have made a statement in the conventional way, God knows.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think, like many things, it’s about risk - and the risk of things not working out is lower at 18 than 16. The time limit for 16 is 6 months I believe, which is better. But it’s the entire self-certification at that age that worries me a little. I’m sure for a lot of kids you’re absolutely right that they know what and who they are. For others, there may be some flipping back and forth (and there’s an argument here that some sort of check would be a benefit to them purely from a paperwork avoidance point of view!). But it’s also an age of immense peer pressure on the one hand, and social media being another huge influence on the other.

I can see people finding themselves in scenarios they aren’t sure about but keeping on going because of what *others* are thinking and doing, and there’s now not even so much as a chat before you can apply for a GRC. It doesn’t have to stay full-on psych or medical exam, but I’d just like some sort of safety net to catch those kids who have ended up getting in way too far with something. Particularly as people unsure about their sexuality or those who know something isn’t ‘right’ but aren’t sure quite what that is yet are often particularly vulnerable.

I don't doubt that some kids do have confusion and recant somewhere along the line, more than likely some time before they start any kind of formal process. But I don't really get why that's so bad that it outweighs the big majority of cases where it's better to start sooner than later.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Sturgeon duly puts Sunak's leg stump half volley away.

Sturgeon confirms Scottish government will go to court to challenge UK government's decision to block its bill
Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s first minister, has confirmed that the Scottish government will go to court to challenge the UK government’s decision to block its gender recognition reform bill. In an interview with the BBC, she said:

In doing so we will be vigorously defending something else, and that is the institution of the Scottish parliament and the ability of MSPs, democratically elected, to legislate in areas of our competence. In short, we’ll be defending Scottish democracy.

I'm not particularly a fan of Sturgeon's "neverendum" view of Scottish democracy, nor the way they've sidelined local democracy, but if I was her, this is exactly what I would say.

[Crabcakes]

I don't doubt that some kids do have confusion and recant somewhere along the line, more than likely some time before they start any kind of formal process. But I don't really get why that's so bad that it outweighs the big majority of cases where it's better to start sooner than later.

I don’t think it does outweigh them - that’s why I’m in favour of change and making it easier and shorter. I just think certification for the youngest age groups allowed might need some minimal interaction rather than be entirely self-led. Not medically or psychologically interfering, just some sort of space to ensure the person has thought everything through.

It’s a big step - having a sounding board could be a good positive reinforcement for most and reassure them they’re doing the right thing.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Ah, OK, get you.

That would be like Ireland, where there's a special process for under 18? I can see that.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

I don't doubt that some kids do have confusion and recant somewhere along the line, more than likely some time before they start any kind of formal process. But I don't really get why that's so bad that it outweighs the big majority of cases where it's better to start sooner than later.

That's not how law making works.