[Abernathy]

Karen White. I thought someone would bring this up.

It's wrong to make this a huge issue based on one case. And it's not a given that Karen White is actually a trans woman, rather than a nasty piece of work who thought he'd found the perfect way to carry out his offences even while in prison.

If there are lots of these people out there, as the TERFs would have you believe, why aren't they offending now?

I said :

Clearly it's not a concern that applies to every trans woman, or something that happens in any volume or with any regularity, but I think that it is wrong simply to dismiss the legitimacy of the concern.

Perhaps you missed reading it? I said in the OP that I was not looking for an argument in initiating this thread. I'm after rational discussion and hopefully greater understanding. I'd therefore echo Malc's request above that you please avoid casually flinging around ill-considered terms such as "TERF".

[Andy McDandy]

Something that occurs to me here is that we need to consider the difference between presenting as a man or a woman, and being, to use an old cliché, "a woman trapped in a man's body".

As said earlier, putting on a dress does not make you a woman, just as a woman dressing in a trouser suit doesn't "become" a man. At the moment I'm sitting across our lounge from my partner, who bra and style of pants aside is basically wearing the same clothes as me - DMs, socks, jeans, t-shirt and jumper. Who says that a trans woman has to present as feminine? Isn't that just reducing the issue to the level of a drag act? "You don't look very convincing", as if you're only "genuine" if you're suitably sexy? Sure, I understand that many trans people prefer to present as "typically" male or female, but it's more than an issue of wardrobe.

So, what to do? Get confirmation from a doctor or a psychologist that you're "genuine"? Well, that's a little problematic in that you're basically saying that a third party has the say-so over who you really are. Spend X amount of time "living as a man/woman"? Well, what's that supposed to entail? Stereotypical gender roles with trans women in the kitchen and trans men farting in the pub? The hormones/surgery option? Not for everyone.

I don't know. I feel sometimes as if we're trying to define a psychological state by physiological terms. but then in some ways it is a physiological issue. I guess I have to go with presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and crack down hard on the perverts and sex offenders and pisstakers, whatever they're wearing.

[Cyclist]

@Abernathy it's a TERF tactic to prey on perception of danger. There is a widely held perception that these people are out there in their hundreds, if not thousands. The reality is that these people are very few and far between. Transphobes ramp up the fear of something which is remarkably rare because it suits their agenda. Analogy: talk to non-cycling people about why they don't ride bikes. The standard answer is they'd love to ride a bike but it's too dangerous. If you go out on the road you'll get killed. This perception of danger is a very real thing, and totally at odds with the reality. It's the same with pervs preying on women in women-only spaces. The fear is real, the reality is that the number of actual cases is infinitesimally small. But why let the truth get in the way of a good bit of fear-mongering when it suits your agenda. And while the debate is side tracked into non-issues like this, the haters are winning.

One thing I have learned is that Kobel was right about something. Women are far more likely to be assaulted by lesbian women in women-only spaces than by men, trans or otherwise. Yet most women don't worry about this. Predatory lesbians are not perceived to be a danger.

In short, there are many things where the perception of danger is actually more real than the danger itself.

I hope I've explained this in a way that makes sense.

Edit: This is relevant to the Trans "debate" as it is important to understand and recognise the tactics used by the haters. The haters want people to be scared. When people are scared of someone it's easier to get them to hate that someone. If our home-grown transphobes weren't bright enough to work this out for themselves they will certainly have had it explained to them by their far-right American paymasters.

And it's not just Trans Rights that the far-right are targeting, it's all minority rights. Trans people are just the first.

Niemoller applies, which is why it's so important to fight the bastards now.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Something that occurs to me here is that we need to consider the difference between presenting as a man or a woman, and being, to use an old cliché, "a woman trapped in a man's body".

As said earlier, putting on a dress does not make you a woman, just as a woman dressing in a trouser suit doesn't "become" a man. At the moment I'm sitting across our lounge from my partner, who bra and style of pants aside is basically wearing the same clothes as me - DMs, socks, jeans, t-shirt and jumper. Who says that a trans woman has to present as feminine? Isn't that just reducing the issue to the level of a drag act? "You don't look very convincing", as if you're only "genuine" if you're suitably sexy? Sure, I understand that many trans people prefer to present as "typically" male or female, but it's more than an issue of wardrobe.

So, what to do? Get confirmation from a doctor or a psychologist that you're "genuine"? Well, that's a little problematic in that you're basically saying that a third party has the say-so over who you really are. Spend X amount of time "living as a man/woman"? Well, what's that supposed to entail? Stereotypical gender roles with trans women in the kitchen and trans men farting in the pub? The hormones/surgery option? Not for everyone.

I don't know. I feel sometimes as if we're trying to define a psychological state by physiological terms. but then in some ways it is a physiological issue. I guess I have to go with presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and crack down hard on the perverts and sex offenders and pisstakers, whatever they're wearing.

Andy - a lot of that is so sensible it shouldn't need saying, but it does, and it covers issues that Mrs A's Women's Centre was discussing in the 80s. I really don't know how you 'prove' someone is transitioning, other than them saying so and taking them at their word. So there is a conundrum.

Simply because the issue is complex doesn't give people freedom to use terms like 'TERF' which I regard as hate speech in itself, and anathema to feminism. Whereas, of course, most feminists are very sympa with trans issues, but don't want women's spaces to be tainted. I think it requires those people who refer to TERFs to open their minds a bit.

[Cyclist]

Malcolm. TERFs *aren't* feminists. If you research these groups that I and others, including Trans people themselves, refer to as TERFs you will find they're in bed with the American far-right, including those who are outspoken against women's rights.

I will do some digging through the relevant thread on another place and get the links the Trans lady provided about these people. I'll start another thread with the results as these people, while being central to one side of the Trans "debate" in this country, are so hateful and bigoted that they're a whole topic (at least one topic) by themselves, and much of what they stand for has nothing to do with transsexuals. In short, they are Donald Trump's "good people". And they are fucking disgusting. And it is their useful idiots over here that our government are consulting over Trans issues.

[Samanfur]

Pedant note: the term TERF was also created by them, to describe themselves.

They only changed their minds about owning it when the negative connotations of what it meant became more widely known, although there're still in a few out there who wave it around like a flag. The woman whose online store Rowling promoted is one of those.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Trans activists call all sorts of people TERFs. They use it as an 'othering' and a term of abuse. That was specifically what Abers asked people not to do on this thread.

They are not all right-wing bigots, some of them are JK Rowling...

[Abernathy]

@Cyclist : Help me understand the motivation of those who deploy “TERF tactics” as you call them. What do they seek to gain? What is the rationale for deploying such tactics ?

Should a fear of something that is certainly rare, but equally certainly has been demonstrated actually to have happened, really be dismissed simply because of the comparative rarity of its occurrence? I really don’t think it can be, and chuckle if you like, I’d say it also applies to your road cycling analogy.

I’m also far from certain about your assertion that predatory lesbians in female-only spaces are not perceived to be dangerous. It seems to me that the danger of sexual predation in such settings is a genuine concern whether it emanates from lesbians or from self-declared trans women.

Finally, I also do not think that the concerns expressed by Rowling (having carefully read her lengthy considered essay on the matter) in any way constitute an attack on the rights of trans people as a minority.
Niemoller does not, in this instance, apply in my view, and Rowling’s support for trans people in general is very well documented. I’d also reiterate my agreement with Malcolm’s assessment of the term “TERF” as a sort of hate speech. It would be good if you stopped using it.

[Cyclist]

@Abernathy Sorry about the delay, bloody life keeps trying to get in the way.


Firstly, I am not including JK Rowling, or others like her, in the TERF category. She has demonstrated time and again that she is not transphobic.

I am referring to the likes of Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull AKA Posie Parker

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/kellie-jay-k ... l-07011451

Harry Miller, the now ex-copper and EDL supporter who was sacked for posting "gender critical" bollocks, and tweeting "This country needs Tommy Robinson"

https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/harry-miller/

Kate Scottow, who ran a campaign of abuse and harassment against a Trans woman

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ad ... /3421.html

And other charming individuals of their ilk.



Right. Now for your questions.

I know the fear of attack by male pervs is real, and I'm not dismissing it. But, the haters are stoking up this fear of something which statistically is extremely unlikely to happen and making it a big issue, simply to confuse the issues and generate hate against their target group. It is a side-issue and, I repeat, extremely rare. It doesn't mean it should be ignored, but it really shouldn't have the prominence the haters give it. Women are statistically in more danger of being attacked by their own partner in their own home than by a strange man in a leisure centre changing room. I cannot stress this enough, if it really is such a big issue, why does it happen so rarely?

I know many cyclists (me included) who have been told by non-cyclists that it is too dangerous to ride on the road, and if you do, an untimely death is inevitable.

Actual danger Vs perceived danger is a whole fascinating topic in itself.


Maybe I should have said lesbian attacks are perceived to be less of a danger than attacks by men, even though they are less rare than most people (me included) realise, though still not an everyday thing. I'm going on my admittedly limited knowledge of women, but the ones I have talked to say they feel less uncomfortable undressed around strange women than they do dressed around strange men. It's this perception of danger thing again.


Maybe bringing Niemoller into it on this side of the Atlantic is a bit over-dramatic, but when you see some of the people British TERFs have shared platforms with, and are accepting funds from, you have to wonder.



Right. Now I'm going to indulge in a bit of life, and then plunge into a thread currently 55 pages long, each page containing 25 looong posts, to find the relevant links to American far right groups and British transphobes. I'm just going outside. I may be some time.

[Cyclist]

Oh, and calling a TERF a TERF is no more hate speech than calling a fascist a fascist, or a Tory a cunt. They are what they are.

Though I'll use the term "haters" if you prefer.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Let's leave epithets out of it.

[Abernathy]

@Abernathy
Firstly, I am not including JK Rowling, or others like her, in the TERF category. She has demonstrated time and again that she is not transphobic.

We’re in agreement, then, that Rowling’s views are entirely reasonable. I’m still slightly bewildered at the amount of vitriol that she has received for those rather modest, and clearly expressed views.

I am referring to the likes of Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull AKA Posie Parker

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/kellie-jay-k ... l-07011451

Harry Miller, the now ex-copper and EDL supporter who was sacked for posting "gender critical" bollocks, and tweeting "This country needs Tommy Robinson"

https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/harry-miller/

Kate Scottow, who ran a campaign of abuse and harassment against a Trans woman

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ad ... /3421.html

And other charming individuals of their ilk.

Not much info on those links, other than Ms Scottow’s successful appeal judgement. Other than that, they all seem to be people complaining that their right to free speech has been unfairly impinged on by police warning them about supposedly inflammatory remarks made online. Which makes me immediately suspicious (see “golliwogs” passim as well as your mention of the EDF). But I think I need to find out more about what these individuals are supposed to have said before forming a definite opinion. I’m otherwise more than happy to accept your assertion that there are thoroughly nasty and vindictive individuals involved in passing offensive “opinions” about trans people, since there is such a proliferation of such individuals opining offensively and counter to decent, progressive thinking on all kinds of other matters.

Right. Now for your questions.

I know the fear of attack by male pervs is real, and I'm not dismissing it. But, the haters are stoking up this fear of something which statistically is extremely unlikely to happen and making it a big issue, simply to confuse the issues and generate hate against their target group.

I do not doubt that they are, if they are the sort of hateful individuals that you say they are. I need to ask again, though, what is their motivation for doing this ?

It is a side-issue

I don’t think it is. However statistically remote it might be, and whatever the “haters”may do to play it up, it is, in my view, a legitimate issue of concern in connection with the proposals for changes in the law around gender self-declaration.

and, I repeat, extremely rare. It doesn't mean it should be ignored, but it really shouldn't have the prominence the haters give it.

I agree on both counts. But it is nevertheless an entirely legitimate concern. As Malcolm says, the law needs to cover all of the bases.

Women are statistically in more danger of being attacked by their own partner in their own home than by a strange man in a leisure centre changing room. I cannot stress this enough, if it really is such a big issue, why does it happen so rarely?

Well, it’s an issue because it is linked to the proposals around changes to the law concerning self gender declaration, regardless of how rarely it occurs. The legitimate concern is, I’d suggest, that the legal changes could lead to an increase in the incidence of such assaults.

I know many cyclists (me included) who have been told by non-cyclists that it is too dangerous to ride on the road, and if you do, an untimely death is inevitable.

Well, again, you know that it isn’t true that if you cycle on the road an untimely death is likely to befall you, but that does not stop some people from having concerns that remain legitimate, regardless of how unlikely it is, as an experienced cyclist, in your view.

Actual danger Vs perceived danger is a whole fascinating topic in itself.

Perhaps, but I might gently suggest that in the context of this particular discussion, it isn’t at all relevant.

Maybe I should have said lesbian attacks are perceived to be less of a danger than attacks by men, even though they are less rare than most people (me included) realise, though still not an everyday thing. I'm going on my admittedly limited knowledge of women, but the ones I have talked to say they feel less uncomfortable undressed around strange women than they do dressed around strange men. It's this perception of danger thing again

.

See above.

Maybe bringing Niemoller into it on this side of the Atlantic is a bit over-dramatic, but when you see some of the people British TERFs have shared platforms with, and are accepting funds from, you have to wonder

.

It may just be part of a continuum of irrational hatred, encompassing not just transphobia, but homophobia, racism, anti-vax, and climate change. You can add Brexit mania into the mix on this side of the pond.

Right. Now I'm going to indulge in a bit of life, and then plunge into a thread currently 55 pages long, each page containing 25 looong posts, to find the relevant links to American far right groups and British transphobes. I'm just going outside. I may be some time.

Looking forward to your report back.

[The Weeping Angel]

Call me naive but maybe appointing someone who poses with rifles as a girl guides commisioner isn't such a good idea

https://thecritic.co.uk/misguided-or-misgendered/

Social media reports showed that Sulley, a trans woman, had posted pictures of herself on Instagram wearing dominatrix clothing, one of which was captioned “Now behave yourselves or Mistress will have to punish you #mistress.” She had also posted a picture in which she wielded what appeared to be a fake assault rifle.

The Merseyside woman, who does not wish to be named, wrote two emails expressing safeguarding concerns about the appointment: one to Girlguiding UK, and one to the local Girlguiding organisation in Southwell. She was one of a number to write such emails: in late November, Mail Online reported that Girlguiding UK was carrying out an investigation into Sulley.

She describes the emails as “rather polite” and “relatively kind”. Her daughter had been a Girl Guide, and she herself had done some volunteering with the organisation. “I thought it was a really uncontroversial, uncontentious email,” she says. It expressed her view that “this person should not be in charge of young people.” (The Critic has seen the email and can confirm her description of it. It does, however, refer to Sulley as a “male”, which may be what prompted the report to police.)

She describes the emails as “rather polite” and “relatively kind”. Her daughter had been a Girl Guide, and she herself had done some volunteering with the organisation. “I thought it was a really uncontroversial, uncontentious email,” she says. It expressed her view that “this person should not be in charge of young people.” (The Critic has seen the email and can confirm her description of it. It does, however, refer to Sulley as a “male”, which may be what prompted the report to police.)

The woman received a formal acknowledgement of her email from the national organisation, which didn’t address the particular issue she’d raised. She then heard nothing more until 7 January this year, when a police officer came to her house and told her she needed to attend the police station for an interview under caution, which “meant that I could attend voluntarily, but that if I chose not to attend I could be arrested.”

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Why was Girlguiding involved?

[davidjay]

Was this a proper investigation or one of those "Some daft sod has made a complaint to we have to do something about it"?

[Abernathy]

“Trans women are women” says Keir Starmer. Uncontentious, you might think, but no, this seems to have rattled Joanne Rowling’s cage big time. Not entirely sure I understand why.

Are trans women women? I dunno. What is a trans woman? It’s a woman who previously was not a woman, but is now. Apologies if that’s too simplistic, but to quote Harry Hill’s brother, “If it’s too hard, I can’t understand it.”. On that basis, Starmer’s not wrong, is he ?

Or is he?

From a political point of view, how much of a burning issue have these questions of gender identification rights become? Is it something that risks losing Labour votes? I mean the Tories certainly don’t seem to be any more enlightened on the issue - in fact, I rather imagine the opposite to be the case.

Jeebus, politics has become such a minefield in the 21st century.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... women.html

[Boiler]

From a political point of view, how much of a burning issue have these questions of gender identification rights become? Is it something that risks losing Labour votes? I mean the Tories certainly don’t seem to be any more enlightened on the issue - in fact, I rather imagine the opposite to be the case.

Jeebus, politics has become such a minefield in the 21st century.

I think that beyond the chattering classes, certain Trades Union leaders and some disproportionately vocal individuals it's only an electoral issue to those who don't have to struggle to put food on their table, wonder where or indeed when their next job is going to be and how they can afford the latest fuel price increases.

That is, if they're not going to be irradiated to a crisp in the next three months.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

“Trans women are women” says Keir Starmer. Uncontentious, you might think, but no, this seems to have rattled Joanne Rowling’s cage big time. Not entirely sure I understand why.

Are trans women women? I dunno. What is a trans woman? It’s a woman who previously was not a woman, but is now.

I don't think anyone (certainly not here and certainly not Jo Rowling) would disagree with that. Her argument is against the idea that a man can change gender simply by asserting that he is now a woman, with no other actions or 'evidence' (such as living as a woman) on his part. This has, apparently, led to men declaring themselves to be trans and then gaining access to women-only spaces (women's refuges etc.), even prisons, where some have, allegedly, committed crimes against women.

[Tubby Isaacs]

From a political point of view, how much of a burning issue have these questions of gender identification rights become? Is it something that risks losing Labour votes? I mean the Tories certainly don’t seem to be any more enlightened on the issue - in fact, I rather imagine the opposite to be the case.

Jeebus, politics has become such a minefield in the 21st century.

I think that beyond the chattering classes, certain Trades Union leaders and some disproportionately vocal individuals it's only an electoral issue to those who don't have to struggle to put food on their table, wonder where or indeed when their next job is going to be and how they can afford the latest fuel price increases.

That is, if they're not going to be irradiated to a crisp in the next three months.

You'd think so, but US Republicans are very good at turning out poor people to vote against this stuff. Can it be done here? I think many see Brexit as bringing forth a US style Republican coalition, but I'm not so sure. There's a much stronger underlying base of churchiness in the US that would get you laughed out of town in this country.

There seems to be lots of people having a pop at Labour over, as far as I can see, mostly swerving the culture war on gender identity, Lots of them seem to work for The Times, as here.

I've only met one trans person in my life. I don't have any special insight or experience, but just from that, I can see that he (as it was) didn't get up one day and think "I'm going to play at being a woman for a laugh!" She is a she, a woman. So immediately, you're having to admit a degree of complexity that might sound like a "silly answer" in an interview.

This sort of silly debate is before you get to any kind of practicalities over self-identity and sharing of spaces. As it happens, I think most of those can be resolved.

[Boiler]

For what it's worth, I suspect that the self-identification without any of what is usually required is going to be the battleground which I suspect will be the Tories' weapon.

I know a couple of trans women myself; one has recently transitioned and was very open about it in the magazine of the society she helped found and as far as I know, everyone has been supportive.