[Spoonman]

First off, if they're going to demand a minimum of 2 A-Level passes, how does this correspond to applicants that presently study alternative "equivalent" post-GCSE courses like BTEC diplomas or other vocational qualifications, or mature students that presently can gain entry via access courses?

Secondly, I thought that for applicants normally UK resident (except those qualifying through an access course) it was a general requirement anyway to have a GCSE in English & Maths grade "C" or higher/equivalent to gain entry to most universities? The memory's a little rusty from over 20 years ago but back then pretty much all university prospectuses I read emphasised this - the one I went to (University of Ulster, now rebranded as Ulster University) certainly did.**



**Though back in that time locally, if you wanted to do A-Levels at a school after your GCSEs, the minimum entry standard for being allowed to do so was having at least 5 GCSEs "C" or above in English, Maths & at least a Science subject or Single-Award science, with a "B" grade minimum at GCSE for the related A-Level subject . OTOH those of us that went to a FE college or "Tech" to do a BTEC or GNVQ had only a marginally lower standard of needing 4+ GCSEs inc. English, maths and a science subject - in some cases those that might have had evidence of generally good GCSE results but were missing a C+ in English or Maths might have been given discretional acceptance on to the course on the condition that they resat the said GCSE subject until they achieved a C+ grade, so all-in-all, the GCSE English & Maths requirement from the universities all seemed pretty academic anyway.

[Andy McDandy]

From my experience at university libraries, partly. There is a need to train freshers in study and research skills, and in some cases teach them the art of academic writing and the maths (especially statistics) they will need. Even in the most artsy of art subjects.

This isn't a reflection on their stupidity though. It's because those skills are NOT taught up to that level. The gap between college and university, in terms of complexity, self-guidance and discipline, staff/student involvement & interaction etc is far greater than, say, that between GCSE and A level.

As for Chinese students, well, again partly true. Foreign exchange money is easy money, and there's actually a bit of soft power exertion going on there too*. But it's nothing new, and I wonder how outraged the SYB commentators would be about Rhodes scholars and the like.

Face it, this 'policy' has more than a faint whiff of Toby Young about it. Uni as a finishing school/social club for the Right Sort of Person.

*My partner used to lecture in geology and geophysics at Liverpool university. Several of her students were lads from Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries looking to work in the oil industry. When they arrived in the UK many of them had problems dealing with a woman lecturing them, or being the one who marked their work. However they quickly realised that they either accepted her, and sharing a class with female students, or failed the course.

One reason they came to the UK though was because their parents wanted them to be exposed to western culture, in the hope that they would come back home with more enlightened attitudes and effect change in Arabic society from within, as part of the educated middle class.

[Spoonman]

From my experience at university libraries, partly. There is a need to train freshers in study and research skills, and in some cases teach them the art of academic writing and the maths (especially statistics) they will need. Even in the most artsy of art subjects.

This isn't a reflection on their stupidity though. It's because those skills are NOT taught up to that level. The gap between college and university, in terms of complexity, self-guidance and discipline, staff/student involvement & interaction etc is far greater than, say, that between GCSE and A level.

Going off on a slight tangent here but I remember hearing a few years ago that a couple of certain Grammar schools that were consistently ranked among the best for A-Level results in Northern Ireland whose students went on afterwards to study at HE level had a notably higher than average university dropout rate. There's no official records for that claim, however.

[Boiler]

This isn't a reflection on their stupidity though. It's because those skills are NOT taught up to that level. The gap between college and university, in terms of complexity, self-guidance and discipline, staff/student involvement & interaction etc is far greater than, say, that between GCSE and A level.

Forty years ago I learned that the hard way: shining star at GCE 'O' level, glitter-coated turd at 'A' level (a B and two Es, for the record). It was at this point I realised that I clearly didn't have the academic rigour for university so I decided not to waste both my time and that of others in clearing and throw myself onto the job market where hopefully I might get vocational training.

In 1983.

Well, we all know how much fun that time was, don't we kids?

[satnav]

My niece is dyslexic and always struggled with English at school but she did manage to go to university and get a degree in Nursing with support from the university and members of the family. I also had a flatmate at university who was very clever but despite having 5 goes at taking GCSE Maths he never actually passed. He still managed to get a 2:1 at University and now has a senior role with a top pharmaceutical company. Under these new proposals both my niece and my flatmate would have been prevented from getting student loans.

The other thing worth baring in mind is that GCSE English Language has change a lot over the last 10 years or so. Ten years ago pupils were able to take a Higher Paper or a Foundation Paper which meant every pupil had a fair chance of getting a decent grade. The foundation paper was easier but you had to get a good mark in order to achieve a grad C. Now everybody sits the same paper which is a pretty tough paper to pass and many Year 10 and Year 11 pupils particularly boys so give up on the subject and so struggle to achieve a pass. I would say that 10 years ago 99% of pupils who were entered for English exam had a fair chance of getting a reasonable grade where as now the figure is properly closer to 80%.

[mattomac]

Dare I whisper that they are a flawed way of judging attainment.

We only have to see the debacle of the last few years. In David Willetts the Tories did have someone who would listen but that’s gone now.

They know best in every sector and if you can’t pay to inflate the grades at your school then tough. Another policy that will have disastrous effects in 10-15 years time. It’s effectively the wrong sort are going to University.

I see lapse arse Harwood was going on about it before, well not everyone can sleep to the top can they?

[MisterMuncher]

From my experience at university libraries, partly. There is a need to train freshers in study and research skills, and in some cases teach them the art of academic writing and the maths (especially statistics) they will need. Even in the most artsy of art subjects.

This isn't a reflection on their stupidity though. It's because those skills are NOT taught up to that level. The gap between college and university, in terms of complexity, self-guidance and discipline, staff/student involvement & interaction etc is far greater than, say, that between GCSE and A level.

Going off on a slight tangent here but I remember hearing a few years ago that a couple of certain Grammar schools that were consistently ranked among the best for A-Level results in Northern Ireland whose students went on afterwards to study at HE level had a notably higher than average university dropout rate. There's no official records for that claim, however.

I went to the school next door to the one that used to consistently top the league tables (one sounds a lot like Faint Fatricks Foy's Facademy, the other I'll leave to your imagination) and there was often a serious uptick in young girls doing GCSE and A-level exams above and beyond the enrollment at the local FE college.

Mind you that's 25 years ago now.

[mattomac]

First off, if they're going to demand a minimum of 2 A-Level passes, how does this correspond to applicants that presently study alternative "equivalent" post-GCSE courses like BTEC diplomas or other vocational qualifications, or mature students that presently can gain entry via access courses?

Secondly, I thought that for applicants normally UK resident (except those qualifying through an access course) it was a general requirement anyway to have a GCSE in English & Maths grade "C" or higher/equivalent to gain entry to most universities? The memory's a little rusty from over 20 years ago but back then pretty much all university prospectuses I read emphasised this - the one I went to (University of Ulster, now rebranded as Ulster University) certainly did.**



**Though back in that time locally, if you wanted to do A-Levels at a school after your GCSEs, the minimum entry standard for being allowed to do so was having at least 5 GCSEs "C" or above in English, Maths & at least a Science subject or Single-Award science, with a "B" grade minimum at GCSE for the related A-Level subject . OTOH those of us that went to a FE college or "Tech" to do a BTEC or GNVQ had only a marginally lower standard of needing 4+ GCSEs inc. English, maths and a science subject - in some cases those that might have had evidence of generally good GCSE results but were missing a C+ in English or Maths might have been given discretional acceptance on to the course on the condition that they resat the said GCSE subject until they achieved a C+ grade, so all-in-all, the GCSE English & Maths requirement from the universities all seemed pretty academic anyway.

Yeah I got on a GNVQ with 5 D’s, I did have a C actually.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

I got into Durham (via teacher training) with 4 GCSEs and 2 A levels...

Now got an MA with Distinction, so what do GCSEs tell us about potential? Not a lot...

There are much better ways of assessing potential, but they are harder work - in policy terms as well - and the Mail readership would scoff at them. So they, like proper vocational education ration like what they have in Germany, won't happen.

[Cyclist]

What are the dirty bastards up to this time?

The University of Cambridge moved a step closer to shutting down its teacher training programme after it failed to reapply for government approval amid concerns over reforms to the system.

While there will be a second accreditation round later this year, most providers have applied already.

The university said it was concerned about “important inconsistencies” in government plans, which many say force providers to follow a “prescribed” method of training.

A Schools Week investigation has found that the reforms have pushed several smaller school-based initial teacher training (ITT) providers into new partnerships. Other universities are also holding off reapplying...

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/cambridge-ref ... e-reforms/

I suppose it's all the fault of the teachers for being too bloody woke or something.

[Andy McDandy]

Hah, who needs teachers? Just get Toby and Katherine*, along with a few discharged squaddies in. Sit 'em down, shut 'em up, give 'em some hard sums to do. Throw a chalk duster at 'em if they pipe up.

*Who will be in their offices writing articles for the Mail and Telegraph, and staying as far away from the kids as possible.

[Tubby Isaacs]

What are the dirty bastards up to this time?

The University of Cambridge moved a step closer to shutting down its teacher training programme after it failed to reapply for government approval amid concerns over reforms to the system.

While there will be a second accreditation round later this year, most providers have applied already.

The university said it was concerned about “important inconsistencies” in government plans, which many say force providers to follow a “prescribed” method of training.

A Schools Week investigation has found that the reforms have pushed several smaller school-based initial teacher training (ITT) providers into new partnerships. Other universities are also holding off reapplying...

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/cambridge-ref ... e-reforms/

I suppose it's all the fault of the teachers for being too bloody woke or something.

The real establishment (ie the government and their powerful mates) have long thought exactly that about university-based teacher training. We've had the bizarre situation where the Russell Group are the gold standard for education in every subject apart from Education itself.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Good thread on Birbalbollocks here. Given the importance of "roll models", she is setting an appalling example to other schools.

Her school's SEND provision was praised by Ofsted, bizarrely. So either she doesn't believe a word of what she's saying, or one of the high profile governors/ the DFE got involved to make sure she didn't break the law, Neither of these would reflect at all well on her.

[Cyclist]

Interesting. I had no idea that teacher impartiality was already enshrined in law. Neither, it appears, did Zahawi

Dear Nadhim Zahawi, did you even glance at existing political impartiality law?

Michael Rosen

Your hastily bashed out document ignores what schools have been doing for years under your predecessors’ guidelines

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2 ... hael-rosen

...For all the years I’ve been observing the behaviour and actions of education secretaries, I have to confess that I am still often bewildered by what your job is for. Are you really employed by us to commission guidelines like this? I only ask, because they seem to have been produced without reference to what schools have already been doing under guidelines produced by your predecessors for many years.

I’m not suggesting that this is easy territory to navigate, and it never has been. When I was about 15 – that would be some 60 years ago – I remember my father, a secondary school teacher, was always keen to know what homework I had been set, and would look over my shoulder.

One time, he spotted that I was beavering away trying to explain a heading that I had been set: “Why Chartism failed”. He couldn’t stop himself. He burst out: “Failed? Did Chartism fail? Haven’t we got elections and trade unions? Didn’t the Chartists want that?”

If I had been asked to answer the question “Did Chartism fail?” there might have been room for the points that my father made but, no. This was my first lesson in discovering that the things we call “topics” or “‘subjects” can be contentious in how they are framed. We might say metaphorically, if something is not on the table, you can’t eat it.


Even so, no matter how difficult this matter is, you thought your time would be well spent wading in there. Out of interest, did you glance at the legislation and guidelines already in place? Or were you more concerned to make a splash in the anti-woke press than to sit in your office Googling what was already in your own departmental files?

If you had, you might have found, for example, that the Education Act of 1996 forbids the promotion of “partisan political views in the teaching of any subject in the school” (Section 406) and requires that when political issues are discussed, pupils are “offered a balanced presentation of opposing views” (Section 407). Then again, Teachers’ Standards (DfE, 2011) states that teachers must ensure that “personal beliefs are not expressed in ways which exploit pupils’ vulnerability or might lead them to break the law”...

A long read, but worth it.

[Andy McDandy]

I suspect that the job of a Tory education secretary is to go "Kids, eh? And bloody lefty teachers, huh?", and appeal to those whose childhood days are long behind them, and who think all teachers are scum.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

And to ensure that the pipelines of privilege continue to function.

[Nigredo]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ols-system

More tinkering with the school system planned.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Words fail me.

After years of taking schools away from local authorities and putting them into academy trusts we are now going to have - da da - local authority academy trusts...

Not a fucking clue. Not one.

[Nigredo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-61088025

I'm sure increasing the student loan interest rate up to 12% is going to fix the skills shortage in this country.

Lest we forget:

[Andy McDandy]

Time was when higher education was seen as an investment in the future. You paid for the doctors, engineers, and other professionals you'd need in the future.

Given that we can use data of home builds to predict how many school places we will likely need in 5 years time, is it too much to ask for some sort of skills planning and building an HE system based on that demand?

Oh yes, I forgot. HE has become commercialised along with everyfuckingthing else so no.