[Tubby Isaacs]

Interesting that a local Tory was honest about this stuff- pork barrel spaffing. I doubt Dan Jarvis has had this money chucked his way.

[Tubby Isaacs]

How big is this freeport going to be?!

[The Weeping Angel]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Northern Independence Party (NIP) who would have been standing in this by-election but they failed to register their party with the Electoral Commission subsequently Ex Labour MP Thelma Walker is standing as an independent candidate.

[Youngian]

Is Hartlepool fighting permanent Brexit culture war and see Starmer’s silence as complicity in Brexit’s failure? Put yourself in these Leave voters’s shoes; word gets around and even their totemic fishing industry has been shafted by this shit show. Its not their fault of course but EU for being nasty to us and Boris is their man to double-down. They might be very disappointed that Labour’s not offering a better Brexit from the magic box but that’s because there isn’t one.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Northern Independence Party (NIP) who would have been standing in this by-election but they failed to register their party with the Electoral Commission subsequently Ex Labour MP Thelma Walker is standing as an independent candidate.

I know "independence" is just a word here, but did Thelma show any great interest in devolution when she was an MP? Reckon SE England would have got the chance to devolve its way out of being ruled by Team Jez from Westminster? (Of course it shouldn't have, but "local people take things into their own hands" cuts both ways).

I don't think Team Thelma are even entering a candidate in the actual election for devolved Tesside mayor, are they?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is Hartlepool fighting permanent Brexit culture war and see Starmer’s silence as complicity in Brexit’s failure? Put yourself in these Leave voters’s shoes; word gets around and even their totemic fishing industry has been shafted by this shit show. Its not their fault of course but EU for being nasty to us and Boris is their man to double-down. They might be very disappointed that Labour’s not offering a better Brexit from the magic box but that’s because there isn’t one.

I wonder if most people (anywhere, not just Hartlepool) have even noticed Starmer surrendering on Brexit. The nice couple in the Rebecca Long-Bailey advert probably have and appreciate it, but they were more interested in politics than most. As far as most people are concerned, old Boris stuck it to the EU and won the vaccine.

[Andy McDandy]

Yup, and as far as Starmer's concerned, he's got a weird name and talks posh. Never mind that Johnson does the same, he's authentically posh, not like that jumped up nouveau-riche Starmer.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Good point about authentically posh. I hadn't really thought about that.

[Andy McDandy]

There's something in our psyche that doesn't mind the lord of the manor, but takes umbrage at the self-made professional. The former can't be accused of forgetting their roots, or getting airs and graces.

Another thing is that Johnson, I think, knows that he's basically a PR guy and cheerleader (see comments elsewhere about his stint as London mayor). And to be fair, he is good at the photo ops. So, he needs good news to push continually. Hence his tactic of accusing anyone accentuating the very real negatives of the current situation as "doing Britain/local area down". Labour are beginning to put together a picture of a better alternative, but Johnson's tactic of "everything's just great if you look at it right/be glad it's not worse" is a hard wall to climb.

[RedSparrows]

I wonder if the aristocrat vs the uppity professional has much to do with the city/countryside dichotomy in British culture.

The landed gentry lost all their power (relatively) but still retained their place at the apex of popular cultural desire (let's leave aside the complicated scene of something like the nostalgic, democratically-inclined, but fundamentally conservative middle class patrons filing through a National Trust gift shop in an ante-room of a manor that once hosted foreign monarchs aside) to a great degree. The city, all mucky and dirty and full of change, is full of people causing 'trouble'. The countryside is full of 'tradition', and them lords and ladies might be a bit posh, but they're our poshos.

[The Weeping Angel]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Northern Independence Party (NIP) who would have been standing in this by-election but they failed to register their party with the Electoral Commission subsequently Ex Labour MP Thelma Walker is standing as an independent candidate.

I know "independence" is just a word here, but did Thelma show any great interest in devolution when she was an MP? Reckon SE England would have got the chance to devolve its way out of being ruled by Team Jez from Westminster? (Of course it shouldn't have, but "local people take things into their own hands" cuts both ways).

I don't think Team Thelma are even entering a candidate in the actual election for devolved Tesside mayor, are they?

Not to my knowledge. The NIP are less a political party more a refuge for Corbynites their purpose is to attack and undermine Labour for the crime of having rejected Corbyn.

[Bones McCoy]

I wonder if the aristocrat vs the uppity professional has much to do with the city/countryside dichotomy in British culture.

The landed gentry lost all their power (relatively) but still retained their place at the apex of popular cultural desire (let's leave aside the complicated scene of something like the nostalgic, democratically-inclined, but fundamentally conservative middle class patrons filing through a National Trust gift shop in an ante-room of a manor that once hosted foreign monarchs aside) to a great degree. The city, all mucky and dirty and full of change, is full of people causing 'trouble'. The countryside is full of 'tradition', and them lords and ladies might be a bit posh, but they're our poshos.

Yeah, but who won the civil war?

[Andy McDandy]

I wonder if the aristocrat vs the uppity professional has much to do with the city/countryside dichotomy in British culture.

The landed gentry lost all their power (relatively) but still retained their place at the apex of popular cultural desire (let's leave aside the complicated scene of something like the nostalgic, democratically-inclined, but fundamentally conservative middle class patrons filing through a National Trust gift shop in an ante-room of a manor that once hosted foreign monarchs aside) to a great degree. The city, all mucky and dirty and full of change, is full of people causing 'trouble'. The countryside is full of 'tradition', and them lords and ladies might be a bit posh, but they're our poshos.

On that tangent, it's interesting to look at propaganda images from WWI. "This is what we're fighting for" was a common theme, accompanied by images of country lanes, twee villages, and other settings that would be either alien or incredibly aspirational to the average city-born Tommy. Forget the realities of rural living - hardship, poverty, poor diet, appalling facilities and all the other reasons there was mass urbanisation in the first place - in a very real "grass is always greener" sense, the countryside was promoted as the "true" England. And a very particular countryside, very much the Thames valley/home counties.

As for the civil war, it's possible to see it as broadly two factions of the upper classes duking it out - the old money based on land and rents, vs the new money based on trade and industry. As someone on here (maybe on the old site or on the temporary Facebook group) pointed out, it followed the same pattern in America, and to a degree in France during the revolution. Round one, the hard men trained from birth get the upper hand, then in round 2 get outgunned by the side that has mass production and realises that it takes a lifetime to train a mounted knight, but only a few weeks to train 100 guys with guns.

[mattomac]

I think it will be a mixed bag but Hartlepool declares Thursday so whatever happens it will push the narrative for a far longer period than it probably deserves, they will, like all Tory governments, deliver very little across the board.

They said they’ve delivered 180k jobs but how many jobs have gone? I think the suggestion on Brexit voters is that they will switch uniformely but consider this, in 2019 they had a party whose message was get Brexit done and they still didn’t go out and vote for them.

A lot won’t turnout and vote, Labour will lose and probably about 10% but the demographics are changing, the party is doing better in the red wall due to the polling and it’s not uniform in the slightest. Labour also had a lot of none turnout voters.

Swindon and Reading maybe the new heart lands of Labour but until they break through in those seats you’ll have this obsession.

Will say this mind Sadiq Khan campaigning in Kingston 2 days before the mayoral election, that has to raise some questions about how hopeful Labour must be in certain areas.

They’ve also had the shadow chancellor and Deputy leader this way in the last couple of weeks, this area isn’t Labour in the slightest so there must be some data showing it’s worth campaigning.

[davidjay]

As for the civil war, it's possible to see it as broadly two factions of the upper classes duking it out - the old money based on land and rents, vs the new money based on trade and industry. As someone on here (maybe on the old site or on the temporary Facebook group) pointed out, it followed the same pattern in America, and to a degree in France during the revolution. Round one, the hard men trained from birth get the upper hand, then in round 2 get outgunned by the side that has mass production and realises that it takes a lifetime to train a mounted knight, but only a few weeks to train 100 guys with guns.

That was on here, as I wasn't allowed on the Facebook group. The full-time soldiering poshos start off well then get battered by the mass production of the proles.

[Youngian]

Will say this mind Sadiq Khan campaigning in Kingston 2 days before the mayoral election, that has to raise some questions about how hopeful Labour must be in certain areas.

They’ve also had the shadow chancellor and Deputy leader this way in the last couple of weeks, this area isn’t Labour in the slightest so there must be some data showing it’s worth campaigning.

Perhaps they’re the sort of Tory voters they do care about probity in public office

[Tubby Isaacs]

Indeed.

I think those approval ratings of Starmer might be a bit optimistic, but I'd expect to see an effect. And if Johnson's going to lose support anywhere, Tory Remainers, perhaps working in services, might be the place where he does. There are enough of them to swing elections in lots of places. They were largely kept on board by keeping out Jez and Johnson getting a deal. What if that deal goes to shit for their own industry?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Not to my knowledge. The NIP are less a political party more a refuge for Corbynites their purpose is to attack and undermine Labour for the crime of having rejected Corbyn.

Yeah, I mean run as a Socialist candidate if you want. But some bollocks about devolution you hadn't thought of till 5 minutes ago? I don't really get why people like this can't just support the Greens.

[Boiler]

On that tangent, it's interesting to look at propaganda images from WWI. "This is what we're fighting for" was a common theme, accompanied by images of country lanes, twee villages, and other settings that would be either alien or incredibly aspirational to the average city-born Tommy.

Hear also, from WW2:

[Tubby Isaacs]

From 1942