[Oboogie]

I wonder when we'll see the same from the BBC.

Try watching Newsnight. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001043h

[Youngian]

I wonder when we'll see the same from the BBC.

Try watching Newsnight. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001043h

Interesting point from Peter Kyle about the Red Wall seats not able to deliver Labour power. Are Red Wall culture war nativist obsessions going to win back Nuneaton or Guildford?

[Boiler]

I wonder if we'll see any disruption during Starmer's speech... ?

[Abernathy]

Let’s imagine an alternative recent history of the Labour Party.

Let’s look at Keir Starmer being emphatically elected as Labour’s new leader, having promised to deal with the shocking legacy of anti-semitism in the party, and to co-operate in full with the findings of the EHRC in its report on the party (as yet, at that point, unpublished).

Let’s imagine that the outgoing leader, Jeremy Corbyn, wished his successor well and expressed a genuine hope that he would lead the party back to government as soon as possible.

Let’s imagine that Rebecca Long-Bailey did not like and re-tweet (then refuse to delete the re-tweet when asked to) a social media post by the actor Maxine Peake in which she endorsed an anti-semitic conspiracy theory that claimed that police in America who knelt on George Floyd's neck had learned the tactic from 'seminars with Israeli secret services'.

Let’s imagine that Long-Bailey kept her shadow cabinet post, and had worked diligently and constructively towards the key goal of getting Labour back to government.

And let’s imagine that Jeremy Corbyn, on the morning of the publication of the EHRC report into the problems of anti-semitism in the Labour Party during his tenure as leader, had maintained a dignified silence, as he had been specifically asked to do by Keir Starmer, instead of making a statement to news media that directly undermined Starmer’s leadership by asserting that the anti-semitism that the EHRC had found in the party had been “dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media.”.

Let’s imagine that Mr Corbyn had not been suspended from party membership as a consequence of his remarks, then reinstated by an NEC committee still at that point dominated by his supporters. Let’s imagine that he had not had the Labour whip withdrawn, but continued to sit as a Labour MP, not as an independent – as he is today.

Let’s further imagine that the far-left faction within the Labour Party had not taken this as a cue to embark on a divisive and destructive campaign against the party leader that continues to this day. Let’s imagine that they instead took active steps to achieve the party unity that they so persistently insist they so desire.

Imagine how much stronger a position Labour would be in now. A strong, united party, an obvious alternative government in waiting, with a de facto next Prime Minister in waiting at its head – a Labour victory at the next election nailed-on in the collective mind of the electorate, in the way that our victory in 1997 was nailed-on many, many months before the actual election.

You may be having trouble imagining this alternative timeline. Because of course, it didn’t happen. The far-left faction is still determined to drag the party down. Owen Jones is launching daily, vitriolic attacks on the leadership. Ken Loach, self-excluded from the party for supporting a proscribed organisation, has declared war on Starmer. There is a concerted effort to trash Labour’s first physical conference since Starmer’s leadership began, with a choreographed, out-of-the-blue resignation in mid-conference by the last Corbynite in the shadow cabinet, a similarly choreographed disaffiliation, complete with boilerplate back-stabbing denunciation of the leader by the minor BFAWU bakers’ union, and the slippery and disingenuous John McDonnell popping up on Newsnight seemingly every night to claim that all his faction wants is unity, and that all of this division and factionalism is entirely the fault of Keir Starmer, who is apparently doing it all not because he wants the party to succeed, but because he is simply interested in “witch-hunting” true socialists, and has reneged on a solemn promise to bring about party unity.

John McDonnell is a disingenuous liar. He is at pains to portray the factional schism within the party as nothing to do with him or his colleagues. All they ever wanted was a united party and to attack the Tories, and why were we wasting time on important rule changes at conference (the only time and place that rule changes *can* be dealt with) instead of attacking the Tories – a false dichotomy if ever there was one.

What McDonnell purposely neglects to say is that party unity is a two-way street. It isn’t possible unilaterally to impose party unity on a permanently indignant faction that in truth, has no interest whatsoever in uniting with the party mainstream. A faction that has obstructed and undermined the leadership at every turn, and only seeks to bring down the present leader, not unite behind him. A faction whose interests are brutally at odds with the historic aims, objectives, and historic founding principles of the Labour Party. McDonnell, Corbyn and their friends claim that they want unity, yet have done demonstrably nothing to work towards its achievement.

The brutal truth is that Corbyn, McDonnell, and their disciples represent and constitute a separate party within the Labour Party. Their objective – as McDonnell himself has made clear in his unguarded moments – is revolutionary socialism (as espoused only slightly less crudely by crank far left sects such as “Socialist Outlook”). It is not, it is clear, the achievement of incremental improvements to peoples’ lives via the democratic election of progressive Labour governments – the very purpose for which the Labour Party was first founded. The conclusion inexorably presenting itself – the massive elephant blundering around the room - is that Labour cannot succeed until this poisonous faction is divorced from the party’s mainstream, whether voluntarily, or forcefully.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Interesting point from Peter Kyle about the Red Wall seats not able to deliver Labour power. Are Red Wall culture war nativist obsessions going to win back Nuneaton or Guildford?

Nuneaton has gone. Nimby Lib Dems will be a nuisance to the government n Surrey, but Gove has been brought in to reassure the faithful and I'm sure he'll do that competently.

I think the way back does lie mostly through places they lost on 2019. Hard to squeeze many more seats out of metropolitan regions (Trafford may be an exception, plus some citizens of nowhere priced out of London towns.).

[Oboogie]

Let’s imagine an alternative recent history of the Labour Party.

Let’s look at Keir Starmer being emphatically elected as Labour’s new leader, having promised to deal with the shocking legacy of anti-semitism in the party, and to co-operate in full with the findings of the EHRC in its report on the party (as yet, at that point, unpublished).

Let’s imagine that the outgoing leader, Jeremy Corbyn, wished his successor well and expressed a genuine hope that he would lead the party back to government as soon as possible.

Let’s imagine that Rebecca Long-Bailey did not like and re-tweet (then refuse to delete the re-tweet when asked to) a social media post by the actor Maxine Peake in which she endorsed an anti-semitic conspiracy theory that claimed that police in America who knelt on George Floyd's neck had learned the tactic from 'seminars with Israeli secret services'.

Let’s imagine that Long-Bailey kept her shadow cabinet post, and had worked diligently and constructively towards the key goal of getting Labour back to government.

And let’s imagine that Jeremy Corbyn, on the morning of the publication of the EHRC report into the problems of anti-semitism in the Labour Party during his tenure as leader, had maintained a dignified silence, as he had been specifically asked to do by Keir Starmer, instead of making a statement to news media that directly undermined Starmer’s leadership by asserting that the anti-semitism that the EHRC had found in the party had been “dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media.”.

Let’s imagine that Mr Corbyn had not been suspended from party membership as a consequence of his remarks, then reinstated by an NEC committee still at that point dominated by his supporters. Let’s imagine that he had not had the Labour whip withdrawn, but continued to sit as a Labour MP, not as an independent – as he is today.

Let’s further imagine that the far-left faction within the Labour Party had not taken this as a cue to embark on a divisive and destructive campaign against the party leader that continues to this day. Let’s imagine that they instead took active steps to achieve the party unity that they so persistently insist they so desire.

Imagine how much stronger a position Labour would be in now. A strong, united party, an obvious alternative government in waiting, with a de facto next Prime Minister in waiting at its head – a Labour victory at the next election nailed-on in the collective mind of the electorate, in the way that our victory in 1997 was nailed-on many, many months before the actual election.

You may be having trouble imagining this alternative timeline. Because of course, it didn’t happen. The far-left faction is still determined to drag the party down. Owen Jones is launching daily, vitriolic attacks on the leadership. Ken Loach, self-excluded from the party for supporting a proscribed organisation, has declared war on Starmer. There is a concerted effort to trash Labour’s first physical conference since Starmer’s leadership began, with a choreographed, out-of-the-blue resignation in mid-conference by the last Corbynite in the shadow cabinet, a similarly choreographed disaffiliation, complete with boilerplate back-stabbing denunciation of the leader by the minor BFAWU bakers’ union, and the slippery and disingenuous John McDonnell popping up on Newsnight seemingly every night to claim that all his faction wants is unity, and that all of this division and factionalism is entirely the fault of Keir Starmer, who is apparently doing it all not because he wants the party to succeed, but because he is simply interested in “witch-hunting” true socialists, and has reneged on a solemn promise to bring about party unity.

John McDonnell is a disingenuous liar. He is at pains to portray the factional schism within the party as nothing to do with him or his colleagues. All they ever wanted was a united party and to attack the Tories, and why were we wasting time on important rule changes at conference (the only time and place that rule changes *can* be dealt with) instead of attacking the Tories – a false dichotomy if ever there was one.

What McDonnell purposely neglects to say is that party unity is a two-way street. It isn’t possible unilaterally to impose party unity on a permanently indignant faction that in truth, has no interest whatsoever in uniting with the party mainstream. A faction that has obstructed and undermined the leadership at every turn, and only seeks to bring down the present leader, not unite behind him. A faction whose interests are brutally at odds with the historic aims, objectives, and historic founding principles of the Labour Party. McDonnell, Corbyn and their friends claim that they want unity, yet have done demonstrably nothing to work towards its achievement.

The brutal truth is that Corbyn, McDonnell, and their disciples represent and constitute a separate party with the Labour Party. Their objective – as McDonnell himself has made clear in his unguarded moments – is revolutionary socialism (as espoused only slightly less crudely by crank far left sects such as “Socialist Outlook”). It is not, it is clear, the achievement of incremental improvements to peoples’ lives via the democratic election of progressive Labour governments – the very purpose for which the Labour Party was first founded. The conclusion inexorably presenting itself – the massive elephant blundering around the room - is that Labour cannot succeed until this poisonous faction is divorced from the party’s mainstream, whether voluntarily, or forcefully.

I wish you were making that speech at Conference, Abers. As it is, you'll have to make do with me giving you a virtual standing ovation which you can't even see.

[mattomac]

Interesting point from Peter Kyle about the Red Wall seats not able to deliver Labour power. Are Red Wall culture war nativist obsessions going to win back Nuneaton or Guildford?

Nuneaton has gone. Nimby Lib Dems will be a nuisance to the government n Surrey, but Gove has been brought in to reassure the faithful and I'm sure he'll do that competently.

I think the way back does lie mostly through places they lost on 2019. Hard to squeeze many more seats out of metropolitan regions (Trafford may be an exception, plus some citizens of nowhere priced out of London towns.).

There is a lot of towns and cities outside of the shires mainly in the south central and southwest that could be targets for Labour and the Lib Dems. Those Welsh seats in the areas they did well this year are also potentials and I would say anything within GM. I think the likes of Hartlepool are gone but it’s shifting some of the more openly mobile seats. Labour won’t win or even get close if it isn’t taking south central seats and to be fair it’s not winning unless the LDs start to gain. I don’t think the north east is a lost place for Labour I think the votes are there.

[The Weeping Angel]

Let’s imagine an alternative recent history of the Labour Party.

Let’s look at Keir Starmer being emphatically elected as Labour’s new leader, having promised to deal with the shocking legacy of anti-semitism in the party, and to co-operate in full with the findings of the EHRC in its report on the party (as yet, at that point, unpublished).

Let’s imagine that the outgoing leader, Jeremy Corbyn, wished his successor well and expressed a genuine hope that he would lead the party back to government as soon as possible.

Let’s imagine that Rebecca Long-Bailey did not like and re-tweet (then refuse to delete the re-tweet when asked to) a social media post by the actor Maxine Peake in which she endorsed an anti-semitic conspiracy theory that claimed that police in America who knelt on George Floyd's neck had learned the tactic from 'seminars with Israeli secret services'.

Let’s imagine that Long-Bailey kept her shadow cabinet post, and had worked diligently and constructively towards the key goal of getting Labour back to government.

And let’s imagine that Jeremy Corbyn, on the morning of the publication of the EHRC report into the problems of anti-semitism in the Labour Party during his tenure as leader, had maintained a dignified silence, as he had been specifically asked to do by Keir Starmer, instead of making a statement to news media that directly undermined Starmer’s leadership by asserting that the anti-semitism that the EHRC had found in the party had been “dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media.”.

Let’s imagine that Mr Corbyn had not been suspended from party membership as a consequence of his remarks, then reinstated by an NEC committee still at that point dominated by his supporters. Let’s imagine that he had not had the Labour whip withdrawn, but continued to sit as a Labour MP, not as an independent – as he is today.

Let’s further imagine that the far-left faction within the Labour Party had not taken this as a cue to embark on a divisive and destructive campaign against the party leader that continues to this day. Let’s imagine that they instead took active steps to achieve the party unity that they so persistently insist they so desire.

Imagine how much stronger a position Labour would be in now. A strong, united party, an obvious alternative government in waiting, with a de facto next Prime Minister in waiting at its head – a Labour victory at the next election nailed-on in the collective mind of the electorate, in the way that our victory in 1997 was nailed-on many, many months before the actual election.

You may be having trouble imagining this alternative timeline. Because of course, it didn’t happen. The far-left faction is still determined to drag the party down. Owen Jones is launching daily, vitriolic attacks on the leadership. Ken Loach, self-excluded from the party for supporting a proscribed organisation, has declared war on Starmer. There is a concerted effort to trash Labour’s first physical conference since Starmer’s leadership began, with a choreographed, out-of-the-blue resignation in mid-conference by the last Corbynite in the shadow cabinet, a similarly choreographed disaffiliation, complete with boilerplate back-stabbing denunciation of the leader by the minor BFAWU bakers’ union, and the slippery and disingenuous John McDonnell popping up on Newsnight seemingly every night to claim that all his faction wants is unity, and that all of this division and factionalism is entirely the fault of Keir Starmer, who is apparently doing it all not because he wants the party to succeed, but because he is simply interested in “witch-hunting” true socialists, and has reneged on a solemn promise to bring about party unity.

John McDonnell is a disingenuous liar. He is at pains to portray the factional schism within the party as nothing to do with him or his colleagues. All they ever wanted was a united party and to attack the Tories, and why were we wasting time on important rule changes at conference (the only time and place that rule changes *can* be dealt with) instead of attacking the Tories – a false dichotomy if ever there was one.

What McDonnell purposely neglects to say is that party unity is a two-way street. It isn’t possible unilaterally to impose party unity on a permanently indignant faction that in truth, has no interest whatsoever in uniting with the party mainstream. A faction that has obstructed and undermined the leadership at every turn, and only seeks to bring down the present leader, not unite behind him. A faction whose interests are brutally at odds with the historic aims, objectives, and historic founding principles of the Labour Party. McDonnell, Corbyn and their friends claim that they want unity, yet have done demonstrably nothing to work towards its achievement.

The brutal truth is that Corbyn, McDonnell, and their disciples represent and constitute a separate party with the Labour Party. Their objective – as McDonnell himself has made clear in his unguarded moments – is revolutionary socialism (as espoused only slightly less crudely by crank far left sects such as “Socialist Outlook”). It is not, it is clear, the achievement of incremental improvements to peoples’ lives via the democratic election of progressive Labour governments – the very purpose for which the Labour Party was first founded. The conclusion inexorably presenting itself – the massive elephant blundering around the room - is that Labour cannot succeed until this poisonous faction is divorced from the party’s mainstream, whether voluntarily, or forcefully.

You should write this up for LabourList Abers.

[BBN]

Lets not forget that Governments have to lose elections as much as oppositions have to win them. Confidence in Johnson has never looked more shaky than it does right now, I've seen a lot of people here in Sussex blaming the Government and ridiculing the likes of Dorries and the like who have tried to claim there isn't a shortage (despite what everyone is seeing with their own eyes in every town and village down here at the moment). If Christmas is the farce it looks to be then it's going to keep piling that pressure on, and Johnson knows it which is why he's so desperate to sound upbeat about it.

This speech (I didn't watch it because I'm working but going by what I've read) seemed to be more about closing off likely Tory attack lines;

"In thrall to the far left" - told them to eff off
"Out of touch remainer" - explicitly mentions Brexit being made to work rather than reversed

Probably loads more but it's shut down the obvious attack routes.

[Crabcakes]

The brutal truth is that Corbyn, McDonnell, and their disciples represent and constitute a separate party with the Labour Party.

While I completely agree with this, I think what's worth bearing in mind is that they are only the leaders of this party within a party by accident. No one put Corbyn into a position of power because he was the best, or the cleverest, or the most shrewd, or the most cunning, or even - pre-election - the most popular. He's a lazy journeyman there because of an accident of fate.

And he's 72. He won't be around much longer - no shade intended or suggestion he is ill, just the way of the world. But there is no clear replacement waiting in the wings as the lack of support for RLB showed. The cranks are also ultra-factional, and will turn on anyone they perceive as not sufficiently loyal - such as McDonnell on occasion when he dared question St. Jeremy. But when Jez is gone - retired, dead or whatever - who are they loyal to? Burgon? RLB? Pidcock? It will be an all-out fight to be king or queen of the hecklers. The purest of the pure. And if we know one thing, it's that they love an in-fight and don't care about collateral damage. That's bad now because they're one loosely cohesive whole - but it won't last.

There's not so much an elephant in the room but a stinking, knackered mammoth. And delightfully, there's every chance that it could be left (no pun intended) to go extinct.

[Tubby Isaacs]

There is a lot of towns and cities outside of the shires mainly in the south central and southwest that could be targets for Labour and the Lib Dems. Those Welsh seats in the areas they did well this year are also potentials and I would say anything within GM. I think the likes of Hartlepool are gone but it’s shifting some of the more openly mobile seats. Labour won’t win or even get close if it isn’t taking south central seats and to be fair it’s not winning unless the LDs start to gain. I don’t think the north east is a lost place for Labour I think the votes are there.

Think Labour will get the Welsh seats back, but the Tories have such a hold on rural votes that it's hard for Labour, in most constituencies, to pile up enough votes in the towns.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Arrowhead]

Think Labour will get the Welsh seats back, but the Tories have such a hold on rural votes that it's hard for Labour, in most constituencies, to pile up enough votes in the towns.

I hope I'm wrong.

Hence why Labour need to get serious about embracing Proportional Representation, and soon. I know the proposal was rejected at the current party conference, but the numbers were tight and they should be able to revisit the issue in another year or two.

I can’t find the numbers right now, but I read somewhere that a sizeable percentage of the Labour vote at GE2017 came from a relatively small number of urban seats.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think embracing PR now would look too much "losers charter". If they got a nice lead then it might look different.

[Youngian]

Today, professional pain-in-the-arse Steve Bray manages to be a pain in the arse to a Starmer heckler and GB News at the same time. Good work.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

A gentler, kinder politics...

[Crabcakes]

She looks like a furious welder in that - utterly pointless - face shield.

[Oboogie]

Apparently she was a particularly unpleasant, bossy, character when she was on Big Brother.

[Abernathy]

Seems she was previously a candidate for Galloway’s “Respect” party, and should not even have been in the hall.

[Oboogie]

Seems she was previously a candidate for Galloway’s “Respect” party, and should not even have been in the hall.

Under what rule should she not have been in the hall?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Abers might not have been meaning that literally.

In other news, interesting thread here. The EU may be open to agreements on mobility that fall short of it (as apparently is possible with musicians). I dunno though. How wide would that be?