[Cyclist]

Time to reincarnate this thread.

The BBC 24-hour Vacuous Dribble Channel had John McDonnell on to talk about the Hartlepool by-election result. It was very much a case of a Corbynite spekang his branes. Reading between the lines it was all Starmer's fault. A proper leader such as St Jeremy would never have let the Tories win. He waffled on for about 10 minutes. Nearly all of it was absolutely nothing to do with the question he was asked, but while he was busy running-down the Party he's a member of, and it's leader, the BBC were quite happy to let him ramble on.

[Youngian]

I assume McD had nothing to say that didn't fit his pre-existing prejudices. Nor do any of the Corbyn gang. If there's one certainty to spring from this terrible night its that shower still have little to contribute.

[The Weeping Angel]

Diane Abbott

https://labourlist.org/2021/05/we-need- ... artlepool/

As I recall Corbynites were quite happy to blame Blair for their defeat in 2019.

[Youngian]

Blaming last night on the stench Corbyn left behind isn't very helpful either.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Why not? I'm hearing from the doorstep that it was real.

(And in a vox pop Sky found someone who didn't know Starmer had taken over).

[Youngian]

Why not? I'm hearing from the doorstep that it was real.

(And in a vox pop Sky found someone who didn't know Starmer had taken over).

I'm sure that's true just don't say it in public as it sounds like feeble buck passing. Starmer now has to find out why he hasn't overcome those perceptions.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Given that people are denying knowing who he is...

We need Ali back.

[Crabcakes]

Blaming last night on the stench Corbyn left behind isn't very helpful either.

While I'm with Malc on the fact it's probably real, I also think it isn't very helpful either because it just reminds people that Labour made the mistake of having him as leader remarkably recently on the one hand, and on the other alienates those who might have liked some of the ideas of Corbyn's time and/or liked the idea of a different sort of person in charge (even if in Jez's case it all went south very rapidly for all but the true believers).

I think the best way to move past him is to make him an irrelevance as soon as possible through electoral success. Easier said than done, but hopefully Thursday is a wake-up call that you can't just try and not put off all the people all the time. You have to show what you're going to do for them as well. I'm hoping Starmer is a bit less stage managed and a bit more human in future.

[Boiler]

Given that people are denying knowing who he is...

We need Ali back.

No, we do not need Campbell back.

What we do need to do is to stop looking backwards - be it at Corbyn or Blair. That reeks of Tories hankering for Thatcher.

It really is time to put the past behind us.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

It's not looking back. Campbell is still the best in the business.

[Boiler]

He'll forever be associated with Blair though.

If he came back, my membership card would be getting the scissors and sent back to my local chair sharpish. (Incidentally, have you noticed how difficult it is to resign from the Party?)

Meanwhile, have a look at the BTL comments here. Perhaps we shouldn't be so dismissive of this self-selecting group.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... 6#comments

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Maybe it's time to decide whether or not we want to be elected again.

[Crabcakes]

Meanwhile, have a look at the BTL comments here. Perhaps we shouldn't be so dismissive of this self-selecting group.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... 6#comments

From those, I can ascertain that Labour are too left-wing, too right-wing, too centrist, too bland, too patriotic, too unpatriotic, too obsessed with SJW issues and too ignorant of what matters to young people.

And that sums up Starmer's problem nicely. Everyone sees them as something else already. He has to give Labour a strong identity again.

In fact, a good start would be to own this. Have a campaign with ads that say

"I'm not voting Labour, because they're [insert grievance here]"

Then underneath have a simple, specific thing that shows they're not that ("In fact, Labour's policy is..."), along with a clear tagline like "Labour: take another look"

No mention of the Tories. No mention of Brexit. Just taking a moan and debunking it with a policy.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

[Boiler]

Maybe it's time to decide whether or not we want to be elected again.

Above this, Crabs has put up an excellent idea (IMO) for a future campaign message. The big worry I have is that we have moved into an era of personality/'character'-led politics - and sadly, Starmer comes across as dull and managerial. By Heavens, it's what this country needs - but in a decade that brought us Farage, Johnson and Corbyn, SKS has got to come up with something to cut through this superficial bullshit.

From elsewhere, and it comes from a Tory not given to stridency:

Somewhere this morning, I saw the suggestion that the next Labour PM has yet to be born. I suspect that comment was over-optimistic for Labour - I suspect 2015 was their true level, 2019 a continuation of it, and 2017 a complete outlier. I am therefore not convinced that they can win in the UK - ever.

[kreuzberger]

From Hemingway to Icebergs via Para. 19, a sizeable and decisive slug of your audience only reads the headline.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think we can happily retire Mandelson.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Why? He's still got a very useful political brain.

[Boiler]

And the first thing the Fourth Estate would do is bring up his loans. Not what you need, especially at this point in time with Johnson and his financial situation.

Stop looking wistfully at the past - we need new faces, not those with 'history'.

[mattomac]

Key difference, Mandleson resigned.... twice.