Mailwatch(ed) Forum

So after having randomly stumbled across a Wikipedia article on primate cities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate_city) , it got me thinking about how ludicrously lopsided funding, infrastructure, business and job opportunities etc. are in the UK. And as a resident of That London, I observe that the sheer concentration of wealth in this region isn't a good thing as it hoovers up all of the resources destined for other areas of the country and it will get to the point where those resources no longer advance what's here, just propping creaky old systems totally overburdened by sheer demand.

Is it possible that Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Bristol and so on could be (forgive a patronizing term) uplifted to be on a more equal tack with London? Not to mention the part to play for Wales and Scotland, assuming they stick around.

I imagine this will be a rather "blue sky" thread but it could make for interesting stimulation of the old grey matter.

I lived in London a few years ago, and what struck me about it was the disparity between the money and the image. It cost so much to live there, yet where was the money all going?

My agency had an office on the Strand. It was tiny, poky, blistering hot/freezing cold depending on time of year, and the noise was terrible. My job was with one of the councils as a librarian, and several of the library buildings were in serious states of disrepair. I'd just come from another librarian job in the Welsh valleys, and council buildings there were in better nick.

Aside from the big shopping centres, there was just an air of seediness and cheapness about local high streets and shopping parades. The same hen cabins and "Stath Lets Flats" employment/housing agencies full of wannabe Apprentice contestants in shiny suits. The bars were overpriced and bland. The traffic was awful. Aside from "seeing a show", or having a wider than normal range of restaurants, what was the actual advantage of living there?

And yes, you know the answer - all the money goes into keeping the property market inflated.

I now live in Liverpool, and spend (or spent, pre-Covid) a lot of time on work related things in Manchester and Newcastle. What I see there is, areas of urban blight aside, the same technical innovations you get in London, the same quality of life, the same shows and range of eateries, all for half the price.

It felt the same when I lived in London for a little while, after graduating.

There's a lot of money put into making the tourist areas and the places where the rich folks live well-resourced and presentable, but if you step even a couple of streets away, it's at least as seedy as any 'left behind' bit of the north.

If there is a mass exodus by remote working metropolitan white collar workers to the small depopulating towns seeking sane property prices and a better quality of life, how will that be greeted by locals? More money going into the town generated by mainly affluent white English workers should be a win-win.

Samanfur wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:17 am There's a lot of money put into making the tourist areas and the places where the rich folks live well-resourced and presentable, but if you step even a couple of streets away, it's at least as seedy as any 'left behind' bit of the north.

Has anyone who bangs on about the Islington elites actually been to the borough? Its rough even by post-war Jerry built council estate standards.

By elites, they mean clever people who read books and have meetings.

I remember Carole Malone going on about Ol' Jez a few years ago, saying "this might go down well in a leafy Islington village* hall, but those of us in the big cities..." which got me wondering just how stupid she is.

*Yes I know the old saying about London being a load of villages that have grown together, but really...

Youngian wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:35 am

Samanfur wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:17 am There's a lot of money put into making the tourist areas and the places where the rich folks live well-resourced and presentable, but if you step even a couple of streets away, it's at least as seedy as any 'left behind' bit of the north.

Has anyone who bangs on about the Islington elites actually been to the borough? Its rough even by post-war Jerry built council estate standards.

They all live in a bizarro world of their self-made discourse.

London is simultaneously effette, liberal and utterly out-of-touch with the working class, and ridden with crime and awfulness, but that's cos darkies, not cos 'the working class', and proximity to this awfulness doesn't stop the effette being 'out of touch' because reasons. Anyone outside the M25 is a saint, except when a darkie or living anywhere like Oxford (let's ignore Cowley and Blackbird Leys cos darkies and stoodents), but the North is also full of stout yeoman alongside... chancers and whining idiots but also darkies... and anyone who writes this shit lives within the M25.

If anything, they spot all the actual general problems (inequality, centralisation of power, snobbery, lopsided life chances) and come up with the most utterly stupid conclusions to feather their own nests.

The old Schrodinger's Immigrant - simultaneously living in luxury on the dole, while taking your job. Keeping to themselves while after your woman. Unemployed thugs and all over the public services. Childishly thick and dastardly cunning in equal measure.

"Childishly thick and dastardly cunning in equal measures" is actually a pretty fair assessment of our Prime Minister.

And the populace continue to mistake his animal cunning for intelligence.

Youngian wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:33 am If there is a mass exodus by remote working metropolitan white collar workers to the small depopulating towns seeking sane property prices and a better quality of life, how will that be greeted by locals? More money going into the town generated by mainly affluent white English workers should be a win-win.

I'm actually tempted to put in a request for relocation to one of our northern offices, as my monthly salary would go much further up there for probably no noticeable dup in quality of life. Particularly if most independent venues in London don't survive the pandemic and get gobbled up by developers who can't wait to turn them into luxury flats for overseas investors to buy.

London depopulated for 50 years until 1990. Plenty of factors in play as to why it could happen again. A property crash causing overseas investors to sell wouldn’t be the end of the world.

The urban relocators can fuck right off and enjoy the decline and deprivation they forced on many a rural town.

When I moved here in 1987 we had three car dealerships, three banks, a big post office, hairdressers, a motor factors, a good cycle shop, a baker and a supermarket plus two chemists. Even had a church clock that struck the hour, and a forge. Yes, a forge. Then, thanks to Thatcher's investment in ECML electrification, the "sparks effect" saw where I live become a commuter's haven.

Now we have no banks, no post office, no cash machines, no car dealerships, no motor factors, one chemist, no cycle shop, no baker and the forge is now a housing estate of 'executive' homes. The church clock doesn't strike any more because out-of-towners complained about it. But we do have endless twee places to eat and drink (including a 'cakery' - is that even a real word, FFS?), a gym, a hand car wash, a load of takeaways - even someone who'll make a cast of your baby's feet. The local TV and radio shop has just survived on repairs and selling non-Chinese shit LED lightbulbs.

Birmingham was second only to London for the creation of new jobs between 1951 and 1961, and unemployment rarely exceeded 1% between 1948 and 1966. By 1961, household incomes in the West Midlands were 13% above the national average, exceeding even London and the South East. However, the incoming Labour government of 1964 sought to control what it saw as a "threatening situation", most notably by extending the Control of Office Employment Act 1965, to the Birmingham conurbation in 1965.

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/cha ... ness-leeds

It's a small step but still appreciated. Probably a token gesture unless they decide to move parliament to a more sensible, central location like Birmingham.

I wonder if it will be as successful* as BBC Salford?

Youngian wrote: ↑
Has anyone who bangs on about the Islington elites actually been to the borough? Its rough even by post-war Jerry built council estate standards.

I worked there, and lived just on the Camden side of the border.

Move stuff out of London / Move stuff into London seems to be a cyclic thing.
Before I was little a series of "New towns" were created to relieve pressure on London.
Experiments have also seen bits of the Civil service pared off and sent elsewhere.

More recently we've seen social policy, with some boroughs relocating benefit cases to far-away towns.
Social cleansing perhaps?

On the other side we have an instinct for massive centralization.
For example young people entering many careers face a bleak "move to London or stagnate" choice.
OK if you fancy a few years in the smoke, and the bank of Mum and Dad can see you right for respectable digs.
A bit of a hurdle for many form lower income backgrounds.


To be honest, I don't have a formula to rightsize London and keep everything ticking over sensibly.
However we should be big enough to take a few lessons form abroad.
1. Look at countries without a primate city (great term). You'll often find better governance and stronger communities.
2. Remove the incentives for regional businesses to create a London HQ - this regularly results in a slide to an all London board, sale to a larger competitor and the regional site closing for economies of scale.
3. When you push people a bit further out of London, push their jobs with them - don't condemn them to a longer and longer commute.

No Idea how you encourage this, let alone enforce it.
That feeling of not having all the answers.

Boiler wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:13 pm Now we have no banks, no post office, no cash machines, no car dealerships, no motor factors, one chemist, no cycle shop, no baker and the forge is now a housing estate of 'executive' homes.

How would depopulation have sustained these businesses?

The town has grown in size since I moved here - but being a dormitory town, many of the residents did all their business away from it. Hence the losses.

It's astonishing that a town this size has no post office in its centre, so now I have to get a bus to the next village to use the Post Office.

Other popular resort areas like Conrwall are looking at this experiment closely. It will be denounced as sinister Bolshevism by usual suspects but sod them.

The number of second homes for sale in a Welsh county has trebled since council tax increased by 200%.

There were 135 Pembrokeshire second homes on the market in July, compared to 38 the previous year, latest figures indicate.

Campaigners pointed to the seaside town of Newport, where 30% of properties are second homes, and called for a legal act to give locals the right to buy.

introduced by the Welsh government with the aim of making it easier for people to afford homes in the area where they grew up.

To help achieve this, powers were given to local authorities to charge a premium of up to 300% on top of the normal council tax rate for those who own a second home in Wales. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyl52jz73vo