Mailwatch(ed) Forum

Watching the local election results rolling in earlier this month, one comment made by a commentator somewhere has really stuck with me, namely that the Tories are now the only serious party on the right in the UK. They've seen off basically everyone outside the mad ranting neo-Nazi BF types and as such hoover up the votes of EVERYONE on the right. Meanwhile, on the left, we have Labour, Lib Dem, Green, SNP, PC and others all taking votes off each other. Loads and loads of the seats lost to the Tories by all of the above could have been saved without this.

So what is the problem? My belief is the UK left utterly lacks pragmatism. These parties all view each other as "the enemy" and campaign against each other. I suppose there is an argument this is the case in Scotland and Wales, but there should be no way the likes of the Greens and Labour are battling each other. Not if we actually want to unseat the Tories within the next generation.

Put simply, is there any hope at all of a dose of pragmatism breaking out among the contenders? Or are we doomed to a world where the Tories getting 35% is enough as everyone else denies the others, Judean People's Front style?

People's Front of Judea versus Judean People's Front. The fact Python was lampooning this over forty years ago speaks volumes.

Much to the delight of a Tory poster I've read elsewhere, he's probably right when he said "the next Labour PM is yet to be born".

My view? My vote counts for nowt round here anyway so I'm just going to resign myself to my remaining time on this planet - be it ten minutes or fifty years - being governed by the Conservative party; all the Tories did was steal the clothes of UKIP which hoovered up the anti-EU and racist vote.

If any party of the left does this, it'll be accused of selling out by both its supporters and its detractors.

The future's shite: the future's blue. Learn to accept it.

It's always been the way that the left have generally argued about policy in public, while the right have buried ideological concerns and focused on winning power and then deciding what to do with it.

I think that a left-centre alliance is necessary, mainly because what the current Tories have managed to do is bring on board the far right who previously could be discounted from mainstream politics because nobody was representative of them. But they now see a route to power, or at least influence, and will tolerate a few BAME and LGBTQ people in high profile roles, while there are still plenty of both without power or influence for them to *persecute.

If anything will threaten that pact, it'll be the realisation from the far right that Tory high command doesn't care for them and sees them as ballot fodder much as they until recently saw middle England. Or from said middle Englanders put off by the Tories long enough to hold their noses and vote LD or for a moderate Labour leader.

The was a question mark as to whether UKIP voters would mainly move to the Tories but have appeared to due to believing Johnson is one of them.

No guarantee Lib Dems voters will deliver to Labour or vice versa. Might be a good idea for Geeens to form a one off electoral alliance with LDs (they’ve done that before with Plaid) but have third place paper candidates rather than a single opposition candidate.

Labour, the LDs and Greens have just formed a coalition to run Oxfordshire CC. It is possible.

The return of the Third Way.

Except Blunkett and Prescott have left the stage, so there might be a chance for a Progressive Alliance. I'd go for it in Carshalton & Wallington, get the Lib Dems back. They might be awful but they're not Priti Patel awful (now).

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 2:37 pm Labour, the LDs and Greens have just formed a coalition to run Oxfordshire CC. It is possible.

Post vote coalition is rather different to an electoral pact to bring down the big bad.

Maybe members could tell me the current state of play.
I seem to recall Labour Party Rules forbade campaigning for, or advocating other parties at the risk of having your goolies cut off (or maybe just expulsion).
That may have changed now, but there still appears to be a big belief that "Only Labour can deliver".

While that's effectively true in England and Wales, there are alternate views.
One being that the only way to dislodge the Tories is for a big combined effort, followed by reforms to consign First past the post to the dustbin of history.
FPTP isn't fit for a system with more than 2 parties, and gives the Tories a far too easy ride.

Doesn't it all sound simple?
I know it isn't, what to do with the Libdems for starters.
Nominally on the left, every time they've had a sniff of a balance of power during my lifetime they've gifted power to the tories.
Then there's the question of middle of the road voters.
Who can tell how many would follow Dacre's orders and trot off to vote Tory, parroting a headline like:
"Labour said there's no money left", or "I'm being denied the vote I want to cast".

Anyway, all that above is the problem as I see it.
I don't know whether we'll see Pragmatism any time soon.

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 2:37 pm Labour, the LDs and Greens have just formed a coalition to run Oxfordshire CC. It is possible.

Likewise in Cambridgeshire which has infuriated the comrades and Blue Labour types in equal measure. Cambridge city is a rare outlier in which Labour compete with LDs and no love is lost but most members can see the bigger picture. The county electoral geometry is becoming clearer; Cambs South becoming firm Lib Dem land since replacing Heidi Allen with some Brexit hack. In SE Cambs Labour is pulling ahead as the main challenger. Two seats the Tories could lose as a result opposition electoral co-operation. Unthinkable ten years ago.

We're going to have to put a lot of deep-seated hatreds aside. The Tory attitude is best summed up by that quote from Churchill about giving the devil a favourable reference - they'll do anything to win elections. On the other hand, the first time you mention an alliance you'll get Greens and assorted Trots saying Labour aren't progressive then Cultists claiming it's proof of a Centrist plot.

First question I'd have on this is "what practical positive grounds do these parties have in common?". Negative framing of "lets get Johnson out of government" doesn't really stand up to pressure when people say "well what are you actually going to do in power?"

The last time the centre/left parties had an option to combine power was around 2017, to form a minority government with Corbyn in power to put out substantial reforms on brexit. The Lib Dems wouldn't sign on to it for some reason and it all fell apart.

I think the Lib Dems had probably promised not to put Corbyn in, hadn't they? Not that there were enough votes anyway. Even if you include them, you only get 316 v 317 for the Tories alone.

Corbyn refused to stand down so we got Boris Johnson instead.

Nah, it was never happening. Philip Hammond and Nicholas Soames weren't chucking out Johnson and putting Margaret Beckett in.

Tubby Isaacs wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 2:32 pm I think the Lib Dems had probably promised not to put Corbyn in, hadn't they? Not that there were enough votes anyway. Even if you include them, you only get 316 v 317 for the Tories alone.

I think the hope was that you'd get a C+S of Lab/SNP/Lib dem/green and be able to make a few legislative plays, then wrap things up.

The lib dems let ideology get in the way of pragmatism, and full brexit happened.

Ah, I'd forgotten the Tory defections (Soubry, Allen, etc), so the maths was a bit tighter in 2019.

But the Tories were never voting for anything with FoM in it. There were not that many Tory dissidents once No Deal was ruled out, either in the Commons or among Tory voters more generally. You can't take an unwhipped provisional vote, without the Cabinet taking part, as sign of much.

Looking back, the best thing for Labour would have been for May's deal to pass. A leader with pro-European cred might have carried that off, with a Callaghan 1976 style pitch. Maybe enough backbenchers could have been found to vote for it, but that's a stretch. Johnson and co (who voted for the deal 3rd time round) might not have voted for it if it was passing.

The idea that Johnson would stand down to allow Corbyn to take over us about as realistic as a few hundred votes altering the 2017 result. It might look possible in theory but out there in the real world it was never going to happen. Boris Johnson stepping down? The DUP voting for Corbyn? I don't think so.

If he'd had the majority, Johnson wouldn't have had an option. We may be in a post-consequences society, but if a larger group of MPs were able to form a government, he would have to step aside.

kettle wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 6:07 pm If he'd had the majority, Johnson wouldn't have had an option. We may be in a post-consequences society, but if a larger group of MPs were able to form a government, he would have to step aside.

If me granny had balls...