:sunglasses: 35.3 % :pray: 23.5 % :laughing: 29.4 % :🤗 11.8 %
User avatar
By Andy McDandy
#49515
“I voted Brexit, all of us did,” he says. “Because of what we were led to believe, not just for the fishing industry, but on other things as well.
No prizes for guessing what the other things were.
User avatar
By Tubby Isaacs
#49516
Youngian wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 6:34 pm Andrew Neil and others have desperately been number crunching the CPTPP advantages having forgot the last five years telling Remoaner Brexit wasn’t about economics but other things such as sovereignty. From the parliamentary select committee report on CPTPP membership.
I think ISDS stuff is overdone- Jez and Lucas types went hard for this stuff, then expected people to vote Remain.

But I agree, sovereignty die hard Andew Neil should be worried by it.
By Youngian
#49575
Andy McDandy wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:10 pm
“I voted Brexit, all of us did,” he says. “Because of what we were led to believe, not just for the fishing industry, but on other things as well.
No prizes for guessing what the other things were.
Have the new wave of immigrants made their way to Hull yet? They aren’t Aussie bar tenders so they should be easy to recognise.
By Youngian
#49913
Mr Walter regrets voting for Brexit as he was duped by incorrect information. Correct information was out there you thick racist twat. Who didn’t think Johnny Foreigner could impose stuff on superior Englishmen like him.
A British couple in their sixties have bought a bargain €15,000 (£13,000) three-bedroom house in Italy for their retirement – but they cannot get a visa to live in it because of post-Brexit travel rules.

Greg Walter, from Winchester, says he voted for Brexit, but now feels betrayed.

“We were told Brexit was not going to impact our life abroad, that it would be just a matter of formality,”

“People who had second homes in Europe, or planned to buy one, were never given the correct information on the vote outcome.” https://inews.co.uk/news/world/brexit-v ... se-2508493
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By Abernathy
#49939
I felt the need to write this. I don’t know what to with it, so I thought I might as well post it here.
===========================================================================

Seven years on from the Brexit referendum, a lot has been forgotten . Most significantly, in my view, the extent to which the entire process of the UK’s removal from EU membership was, in reality, the biggest con-trick ever perpetrated on the people of the UK. I intend to show why this was the case - how the British people were massively lied to, were persuaded to vote directly against their own interests, and were gaslit into believing, with considerable belligerence, that a marginal decision to end the UK’s EU membership was somehow the unchallengeable “will of the people”. First, some background :

2010 : The Tory/Lib Dem coalition government takes power. During the following five years, Tory Eurosceptics’ influence grows. UKIP enjoys some electoral success, with at least two rebel Eurosceptic Tory MPs defecting to Farage’s party. Cameron, in an attempt both to appease the incipient Europhobe rebellion within his own party and neuter the continuing rise of UKIP, approaches the European Commission to request further concessions for the UK on child benefit payments, Eurozone/non-Eurozone rights, and the principal of “ever closer union” as applied to the UK. He vowed that if the EU did not agree to these concessions, he would institute an “in/out” referendum in the UK on continuing EU membership. When he obtained only partial agreement from the EU on these concessions, Cameron duly made the setting up of an “in/out” referendum a commitment in the Tories’ 2015 election manifesto. In doing so, Cameron was gambling on two things : either that the 2015 election would deliver another hung parliament and a continuation of the Tory/Lib Dem governing coalition, in which the Lib Dem part of the coalition could be expected to veto any referendum, or alternatively, if he was obliged to deliver a referendum, that he could carry the day and ensure a vote to remain, as he had previously done in the referendum on switching the UK electoral system to the “Alternative Vote” model. In the event, the Tories were returned in 2015 with a governing majority, with the Lib Dems left largely out in the cold. Cameron duly legislated for an “in/out” referendum to take place in June 2016.

This, truly, is where the deception really begins. The referendum that was legislated for by the Tories was to be run on a restricted franchise : younger people aged between 16 and 18, who had been able to vote in the referendum on independence for Scotland in 2014, were excluded from voting. So too were citizens of EU countries living and working(and paying taxes) in the UK, and UK citizens resident outside the UK for more than 15 years. So the three groups of voters with arguably the strongest material interest in the UK remaining part of the EU were explicitly excluded from voting on a matter that would directly directly impact their lives. The referendum question (Leave or Remain) was to be decided only by a simple majority, when a referendum on a significant constitutional change would normally require a “super majority” vote of greater than two thirds to effect change. Most egregiously of all, the legal status of the referendum was that it was advisory only, and non-binding. This meant that legally, the government was not obliged to implement a decision resulting from the referendum of say, 52-48 (the eventual actual result). Cameron, however, had pledged solemnly to implement whatever the referendum result indicated, thereby giving the referendum the effect of binding status, though quite invalid in legal terms. In political terms, the advisory only legal status of the referendum therefore meant that the decision to leave the EU was *entirely* a decision taken by the Tories in government for political reasons, and not the binding “will of the people”that it was relentlessly touted as.

The referendum campaign itself was, of course, infamously conducted, and won, on the basis of lies. The big, central lie was that the UK sent £350 million per week to the EU, with a suggestion that this amount could or should be spent on the NHS. The UK did not send £350 million to the EU. The figure failed to account for the UK’s contribution rebate (secured by Margaret Thatcher), or for the significant amount of funding that came back to the UK through EU funded schemes like the Common Agricultural Policy or the Regional Development Fund. It was said, dishonestly, that Turkey was about to join the EU, and that some 77 million Turks would then be likely to come to the EU. Turkey was not about to join the EU, and still isn’t, seven years later. It was asserted that the UK’s access to the EU single market was not under threat. It was. It was asserted (by Penny Mordaunt) that the UK would be “forced” to sign up to a new EU army. It would not be, and still would not be, seven years later. Up to 40 new free trade agreements outwith the EU were promised. Virtually none have materialised, seven years later. Cheaper food was assured. We can see for ourselves the magnitude of that particular lie. I could go on, but there is only so much you can stomach of this sort of thing.

The damage that losing our membership of the EU has caused, to the UK economy, its trade, society, race relations, our international reputation, our NHS, to people’s lives, is so massive as to render the way in which the decision to leave the EU was engineered , in my view, nothing short of a crime. A crime motivated purely by perverse ideology within the Conservative Party and UKIP, and for which, regrettably, those responsible have not been brought to justice, and are unlikely ever to be.
Last edited by Abernathy on Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Boiler
#49945
Youngian wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:25 pm The Tory/Reform vote has yet to fall below 30 percent. The difference between England and MAGA Trump voters is about 5-10 percent. The good news is that the Tory/Reform vote is dying at a net rate of one percent per year.
Oh dear, that old canard that Tory voters die and never get replaced.

Come on, you know it doesn't work like that. There are plenty of young people out there who will replace them - I'm sure looking at the likes of Twitter and other social media platforms will confirm that there are many with similar beliefs.

I'd also add that whilst Farage still has a breath in his body, he will be able to influence people.

Elsewhere I've taken a "Rejoin NOW!" type to task; this issue is likely to be politically toxic for a least a generation so don't get your hopes up - nothing will happen until (a) Farage is pushing up the daisies and (b) we have a better-informed and better-educated public who are able to make decisions without being swayed by foreign-owned media and charismatic conmen.

I would much prefer that referenda were banned forthwith. Attlee was right.
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By Abernathy
#49946
Boiler wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:36 pm
Youngian wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:25 pm The Tory/Reform vote has yet to fall below 30 percent. The difference between England and MAGA Trump voters is about 5-10 percent. The good news is that the Tory/Reform vote is dying at a net rate of one percent per year.
Oh dear, that old canard that Tory voters die and never get replaced.
I don’t think Ian was quite saying that, was he ?

I would much prefer that referenda were banned forthwith. Attlee was right.
As in Germany. The Germans get so much right.
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User avatar
By Spoonman
#49947
Abernathy wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:44 pm
Boiler wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:36 pm I would much prefer that referenda were banned forthwith. Attlee was right.
As in Germany. The Germans get so much right.
Referenda are not banned in Germany...

...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Germany

...essentially, a referendum concerning Federal law can only occur in two ways in the country - either for the approval of a new constitution or for a reorganisation of the states that make up the federal country. However, referenda at state & more local levels seem to happen more commonly, including people's inititaves like their neighbours in Switzerland but compared to them, the levels for collecting signatures in a certain time period for forcing a referendum has a much higher bar to clear.

As I've talked about before, where government institutions are well structured, strong rules concerning campaigning conduct are in place and the voting population are educated in to how they should decide how to vote in such a plebiscite, they can work well - the Republic of Ireland is one example where they work well within a "Westminster" style of governance. However given the lack of a formal written constitution along with the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty and add the electorate not being effectively educated (as a whole) on how such referenda should be decided upon, it's essentially impossible to properly implement in the UK, the only practical exception being for very major cases where a plebiscite of voters is ultimately needed to give it formal widespread legitimacy, like the 2014 Scottish independence referendum. Otherwise, yeah it's best to keep them only maybe for the likes of parish council areas.
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By Youngian
#49959
Oh dear, that old canard that Tory voters die and never get replaced.

Come on, you know it doesn't work like that. There are plenty of young people out there who will replace them - I'm sure looking at the likes of Twitter and other social media platforms will confirm that there are many with similar beliefs.

Went through this last week on another thread with statistics showing that the Conservatives aren’t replenishing their older voters. And that Labour used to do better with pensioners while the Tories increased their popularity with under 40s in the 80s. Unfortunately young people don’t believe they’ll have much to conserve when they’re 50 and there’s no council house stock to flog them at a discount.
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User avatar
By Andy McDandy
#67861
Every day she hides in a waterlogged tin hut at the bottom of the garden, and has sex with several American pilots, while he sails to France and gets shot.
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By soulboy
#67888
Ms Avery, a vintage dressmaker, also likes to bake using 1940s recipes and kitchenware from that period.
I wonder if they limit themselves to 4oz. of butter, 2 eggs and half a pound of sugar a week?

And at that point I stop taking the mickey. It seems a harmless enough hobby and if it helps them get through life then I am in no position to judge.
By Bones McCoy
#67889
soulboy wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 10:18 am
Ms Avery, a vintage dressmaker, also likes to bake using 1940s recipes and kitchenware from that period.
I wonder if they limit themselves to 4oz. of butter, 2 eggs and half a pound of sugar a week?

And at that point I stop taking the mickey. It seems a harmless enough hobby and if it helps them get through life then I am in no position to judge.
I think some of them call it "living history".
There used to be a big annual get-together at Dumbarton castle.
This was quite anachronistic as you'd get all sorts muddled in together.

The Victorian ladies would be next to the Celtic wariors, with the WW1 Tommies on the next stand.
One year somebody turned up with a fabulous vintage car, driver wearing dinner jacket and goggles with a couple of "flapper ladies" in the back.

Some take it very seriously "all authentic stuff, forge your own needles before you sew any garments".
Others clearly buy in the togs and focus harder on the aspects of life at that time.
I believe a few "how did they do ..." historical questions have been answered by people trying and finding out.

They're also rather popular with film and TV people when they need a few authentic looking extras for a period drama.

Doing it full-time seems a bit over and above anything sane.

Then there are those who dress up as Crimean soldiers and attempt to re-create the drill and uniform of the time.
Alas those groups never attract enough enthusiasts to create the regimental march past of their dreams.
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