[davidjay]

I forget during which particular scandal is was that a certain ex-member of our happy band wined (sic) that we were treating Corbyn unfairly and we were expecting better standards from him than from the Tories. One of the many things that he and his ilk still don't get is that yes, we do expect better standards of decency from Labour than the Tories, because that's what we stand for. We're morally better than them; it's the core belief of our philosophy. And to go a step further, it's not just a question of morality. They have so many advantages - media, funding, the inate small c conservatism of England - that if we're ever going to be successful we have to be better than them at everything.

[Boiler]

I think that by electing Johnson, a large chunk of the electorate has shown it doesn't care about 'morality'.

Before long, Labour and the Left will be seen as miserable hand-wringers with their heads up their own arses, whereas if you want fun...

[Crabcakes]

That "but X is shit too" argument was awful. Are the tories dreadful on islapamphobia and antisemitism? yes. Does that give *anyone* a pass if they're just dreadful on antisemitism? Of course not. But not turning a blind eye to really quite blatant failings somehow became directly equivalent to backstabbing.

And now of course, those same people who invited us to ignore the many and varied faults of a man singularly not up to the job he lucked into turn every tiny issue and disagreement with the man elected to replace him by the same people who had elected his predecessor into a repeated front-stabbing exercise, demanding he step down so...[things].

They have no plan and no replacement* and no concern about the damage it would cause to change leaders or even the sense to look at what's happening with Biden and think "hey, maybe when we're *in* power with a leader people will elect, we can actually do some progressive stuff". Much better to just complain, demand someone mediocre is installed, and (if that happened) then go back to complaining about the quality of the electorate.

*or at least no replacement who'd do anywhere near as well, let alone better.

[Crabcakes]

Before long, Labour and the Left will be seen as miserable hand-wringers with their heads up their own arses, whereas if you want fun...

No argument about the first part - Labour does need to sort out the whole navel-gazing thing and make its case. But the fun thing - people who have long covid or have lost loved ones aren't having fun. People in NI aren't having fun. Fishermen aren't having fun. Farmers aren't having fun. Small business owners aren't having fun. Legal immigrants aren't having fun. Victims of crime awaiting court dates aren't having fun. NHS workers aren't having fun.

That list is growing and growing and growing, because Johnson sells out every single group he makes promises to so that he can live another day. That worked pre-brexit because the day to day reality hadn't changed. But we're only 5 months in, it's an absolute fucking disaster, and he's running out of people to shaft in order to keep someone else (temporarily) happy.

We all thought Trump was untouchable, and now and his awful family are the subject of criminal investigations in New York. And when he goes down (and he will), the GOP - having allied itself so closely to him - will go too. The situation here with Johnson and the Tories is the same. Right now it's held together by mutually assured destruction. But as Cummings has shown, once someone is wronged there's no reason whatsoever to carry on taking one for the team.

[Boiler]

Before long, Labour and the Left will be seen as miserable hand-wringers with their heads up their own arses, whereas if you want fun...

No argument about the first part - Labour does need to sort out the whole navel-gazing thing and make its case. But the fun thing - people who have long covid or have lost loved ones aren't having fun. People in NI aren't having fun. Fishermen aren't having fun. Farmers aren't having fun. Small business owners aren't having fun. Legal immigrants aren't having fun. Victims of crime awaiting court dates aren't having fun. NHS workers aren't having fun.

"But they're 'others' and I don't care about them. I care about me and my family."

It pains me to say this, but a lot of forum members here would do well to be members of other forums that aren't so closely-tied politically and take in their views, without necessarily challenging them: members where there's a good spread from e.g. pro-Palestinian supporters to rabid right-wing braggarts from the North East telling you how their Audi R8 is great and they don't care what southern fairies think. People from the "Red Wall" who wanted Brexit and a Labour government, but wouldn't vote for Jez because he embodied the metropolitan elite and their 'irrelevant' concerns, whilst seeing Starmer as a traitor to Brexit then.

Perish the thought, but what would have happened in 2019 if Labour had taken a pro-Brexit stance, on a "will of the people" ticket: would the "Red Wall" losses have been so bad then?

[Crabcakes]

"But they're 'others' and I don't care about them. I care about me and my family."

It pains me to say this, but a lot of forum members here would do well to be members of other forums that aren't so closely-tied politically and take in their views, without necessarily challenging them: members where there's a good spread from e.g. pro-Palestinian supporters to rabid right-wing braggarts from the North East telling you how their Audi R8 is great and they don't care what southern fairies think. People from the "Red Wall" who wanted Brexit and a Labour government, but wouldn't vote for Jez because he embodied the metropolitan elite and their 'irrelevant' concerns, whilst seeing Starmer as a traitor to Brexit then.

Perish the thought, but what would have happened in 2019 if Labour had taken a pro-Brexit stance, on a "will of the people" ticket: would the "Red Wall" losses have been so bad then?

Believe it or not, I am fairly cynical and (thanks to a few FB friends from where I grew up among other things) I'm well aware Johnson plays well to certain groups. But it's actually from that I sense things changing. You're right that a hell of a lot of people don't care unless it affects them. What I'm increasingly seeing is people starting to care because it's affecting them. For example, I've got a mate who is an ex-copper in the home counties. He voted Tory all his life up to the 2017 GE. Now he won't touch them again, and is becoming increasingly vocal against them. An in-law of mine was a moaning jobsworth who genuinely considered standing for the Tories as a local councillor because he was pissed off at being inconvenienced by some incredibly minor local issue. Now he's posting anti-Boris things daily.

My cynicism is why I'm confident it will come down - because of self-interest and bitterness. The Tories are pissing too many people off, and the money isn't being spread to as many people as it once was. We might all get pissed off at cronyism, but not as pissed off as the people who didn't get a cut.

[Boiler]

Don't get me wrong Crabs, I've seen a few former Tories make that move leftwards thanks to either Johnson and/or Brexit, but is it matched by the number of people heading rightwards?

[davidjay]

It's almost thirty years since Bill Clinton said it was the economy, stupid. Even before then the Evil Witch had worked out how many people she needed to make better off in order to keep getting re-elected - she could live with three million unemployed when five million had bought their council house or earned a few quid in the great utility fire sale. She also made sure that they believed being better off was the only thing that mattered in life. It took Labour until after 1992 to cotton on, and look at the result.

And then, in 2016 things changed again. It's not about the economy anymore, it's the flag. As we've said on here before, Black Country people would rather starve in Dudley than eat well in Birmingham and the situation is the same on a national scale. Brexiters are happy to eat grass, provided it's wrapped in a St George's cross and served up by a grinning bullshitter with ruffled hair telling them not to worry because we're all going to muddle through, come out the other side smiling and everybody who tells you different is a great big moaning Minnie. And what Labour can offer to counteract that is beyond me.

[Crabcakes]

Thing is, like in the US, who is still undecided who is now moving right? Is there really a pool of previously vote-shy borderline fascists who are suddenly flipping from Labour?

The tories absorbed UKIP/Brexit by becoming them, and largely clinging on to core support, and that wins them elections with 45%-ish of the electorate who vote because of the shortcomings of FPTP. Previous vote splits have fallen away now Farage has fucked off. Where else is it going to come from - a pool of fascist greens? The racist anti-immigrant wing of the Lib Dems?

It's worth remembering that it would take ONE GE win by a progressive alliance - which we already know has over 50% of the vote - and then a change to PR, and the Tories would never win a majority again. Ever. The miserable reality is we live in a country where the party that claims it speaks for the silent majority are actually a very vocal, bullying minority, and the ACTUAL majority aren't properly represented.

Also:

Perish the thought, but what would have happened in 2019 if Labour had taken a pro-Brexit stance, on a "will of the people" ticket: would the "Red Wall" losses have been so bad then?

They would have been fucking annihilated. Might have kept a few red wall seats, but elsewhere would have lost loads more. I voted for Labour despite Corbyn. Labour despite Corbyn AND Brexit would have been too much. Certain people on the left would probably have been delighted as they'd have see whatever rump that remained as "real" labour, and anyone who didn't hold their nose as an obvious blairite centrist blue tory scum.

[Boiler]

It's worth remembering that it would take ONE GE win by a progressive alliance - which we already know has over 50% of the vote - and then a change to PR, and the Tories would never win a majority again. Ever.

But the two major parties we have absolutely, positively do NOT want PR. PR is viewed - especially by Tories - as a road to permanent logjam, of "never getting things done" whilst the minor partners squabble about minutiae.

[davidjay]

It's worth remembering that it would take ONE GE win by a progressive alliance - which we already know has over 50% of the vote - and then a change to PR, and the Tories would never win a majority again. Ever.

But the two major parties we have absolutely, positively do NOT want PR. PR is viewed - especially by Tories - as a road to permanent logjam, of "never getting things done" whilst the minor partners squabble about minutiae.

Surely even the Jezzites have realised by now that the only way to ever get the Tories out is PR?

[Cyclist]

Surely even the Jezzites have realised by now that the only way to ever get the Tories out is PR?

You're assuming Corbynites are interested in getting rid of the Tories. They seem to be more interested in ideological purity than gaining power.

[Boiler]

And it's a lot easier to sit and protest on the sidelines than develop policies you might have to enact one day.

[davidjay]

Surely even the Jezzites have realised by now that the only way to ever get the Tories out is PR?

You're assuming Corbynites are interested in getting rid of the Tories. They seem to be more interested in ideological purity than gaining power.

Sorry, I forgot for a moment.

[visage]

Regarding earlier comments about the media; from day one, Corbyn was very happy to say that the media are the enemy, He trumpeted his support for Leveson 2, and was happy to throw red meat to his fanclub about how, once elected, Murdoch would be out on his ear.

But it was never really addressed how, if the media control who wins, that as an opposition party publicly making them your number one target would result in you winning power.

Yet again, pandering to voters in his base seemed more important than looking at voters that werent.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Interesting point made here, from somebody worth following. This suggests to me that you don't trumpet how socialist you are if people basically see themselves as moderate. As Christabel says in that thread, being moderate will mean different things to different people. so you don't have to take all your policies from 2008 Nick Clegg. But there's at the very least a messaging problem.

[The Weeping Angel]

Interesting point made here, from somebody worth following. This suggests to me that you don't trumpet how socialist you are if people basically see themselves as moderate. As Christabel says in that thread, being moderate will mean different things to different people. so you don't have to take all your policies from 2008 Nick Clegg. But there's at the very least a messaging problem.

Biden did something similar last year.

[Crabcakes]

Regarding earlier comments about the media; from day one, Corbyn was very happy to say that the media are the enemy, He trumpeted his support for Leveson 2, and was happy to throw red meat to his fanclub about how, once elected, Murdoch would be out on his ear.

But it was never really addressed how, if the media control who wins, that as an opposition party publicly making them your number one target would result in you winning power.

Yet again, pandering to voters in his base seemed more important than looking at voters that werent.

It was, as ever, always assumed that once people had been suitably informed of the wonderfulness of Jez they would immediately form orderly queues to vote for him regardless of what the papers said.

In the same way Johnson likes to shift blame to the public for "not being vigilant" with covid and the like, Corbyn's supporters like to blame the electorate for simply being Tory. Which allowed them at a stroke to write off huge swathes of people's opinions and (political) wants and indeed any sense that there was a need to campaign to win them over. If you weren't onside immediately and stayed there with 100% loyalty simply *because*, then you were obviously a wrong-un all along.

[davidjay]

As the Corbynista I spoke about a couple of years ago (who sadly died last year) regularly said, "People need to be educated". And as a Tory said, "When we lose we change our leader. When Labour lose they try to change the electorate."

We all know which of those ideas wins elections.

[davidjay]