Mailwatch(ed) Forum

Corbyn might endorse the Greens but I can’t see them running with him. He’d be a better fit with Lindsey German and friends, but they’d put off a load. So I think it’ll be him as an independent if he does it.

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:01 pm*And on that score, women in the public eye had to be both attractive, and seen as "goers". In fact I remember one episode of TFI Friday where Chris Evans (the cunt, not Captain America) slobbered over a lady in the "bar area", and on learning she was Polish, said "Well, there are some good things to be said for being in the EU!".

On Chris Evans, there's a deliciously vicious chapter in Luke Haines' book Bad Vibes,where he writes about the Auteurs appearance on the TFI Friday pilot. His kindest observation being "In the land of the blind the four-eyed man is king." It gets worse from there.

The podcast sounds interesting; will give it a listen.

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:01 pm There's a blog I follow called Frantic Planet, which had a series of posts called The Accursed Nineties. The author's theory was that if one word defined pop culture of the later 90s, it was laddism, and while there were efforts to promote shows with women hosts, target audiences, and so on (the Girlie Show for example*), they had to emulate "the lads". Same as with gay men - there was a trend of "he's a gay, but he knows a lot about football so that's alright!".

*And on that score, women in the public eye had to be both attractive, and seen as "goers". In fact I remember one episode of TFI Friday where Chris Evans (the cunt, not Captain America) slobbered over a lady in the "bar area", and on learning she was Polish, said "Well, there are some good things to be said for being in the EU!".

In hindsight there were a lot of unsavoury attitudes during the nineties. Loaded et al are now generally looked on unfavourably but as you say, the TGIF mentality was often horrible while Fantasy Football and Soccer AM to name but two got away with thinly-veiled xenophobia and sexism because it was all ironic, Cool Britannia and the protagonists usually had a degree and the right accent.

What’s Billy Piper’s current partner like? She don’t half pick ‘em.

I think Evans makes no bones about the fact he had a bit of a breakdown around TFI Friday time (and then again with Top Gear when it all went to shit), and admitted he’d been a colossal prick.

We can only hope the subsequent Mr Piper has a similar revelation sometime soon.

Evans had long been calculating Wogan’s age when he became 50 so he relaxed on the golf course for a few years while he figured out the best route to Tel’s breakfast seat.

davidjay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:17 pm

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:01 pm There's a blog I follow called Frantic Planet, which had a series of posts called The Accursed Nineties. The author's theory was that if one word defined pop culture of the later 90s, it was laddism, and while there were efforts to promote shows with women hosts, target audiences, and so on (the Girlie Show for example*), they had to emulate "the lads". Same as with gay men - there was a trend of "he's a gay, but he knows a lot about football so that's alright!".

*And on that score, women in the public eye had to be both attractive, and seen as "goers". In fact I remember one episode of TFI Friday where Chris Evans (the cunt, not Captain America) slobbered over a lady in the "bar area", and on learning she was Polish, said "Well, there are some good things to be said for being in the EU!".

In hindsight there were a lot of unsavoury attitudes during the nineties. Loaded et al are now generally looked on unfavourably but as you say, the TGIF mentality was often horrible while Fantasy Football and Soccer AM to name but two got away with thinly-veiled xenophobia and sexism because it was all ironic, Cool Britannia and the protagonists usually had a degree and the right accent.

I remain convinced that David Baddiel's show about internet trolls owes its existence to the fact that people on Twitter kept mentioning his blacking up to make fun of Jason Lee.

No it doesn't in fact Baddiel actually addresssed that in his documentary and pointed out how it's used as whataboutery to attack him and distract from what he's saying.

Interesting thread here (this is only part of it) on how useless Jez was.

Electorate divided into 6 demographic groups. Jez won only 1 of them, "activist left". I'll accept that it was hard to win Patriotic Left with Brexit, though his patriotism of not condemning IRA violence and much else won't have helped. Not surprisingly, he and his pals who hate centrist liberals lost "Centrist Liberals". He also managed to lose "Disillusioned Suburbanites", again probably some Brexit effect here, but I think also a reflection that he prioritised students (who'd have voted for him anyway). What if he'd halved fees and spent the extra money on a fund for people who don't go to university to do things useful to them?

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:34 pm No it doesn't in fact Baddiel actually addresssed that in his documentary and pointed out how it's used as whataboutery to attack him and distract from what he's saying.

I think he's right about that- there's a big overlap with Jez fans who'd overlook Jez doing something in the mid 90s very happily.

But he was far too slow to apologise to Jason Lee personally.

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:34 pm No it doesn't in fact Baddiel actually addresssed that in his documentary and pointed out how it's used as whataboutery to attack him and distract from what he's saying.

There's more than one type of racism. Baddiel is hot on the sort that starts with violence but wasn't so quick with the aren't foreigners funny stuff.

Crabcakes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:47 pm I think Evans makes no bones about the fact he had a bit of a breakdown around TFI Friday time (and then again with Top Gear when it all went to shit), and admitted he’d been a colossal prick.

I wonder if that was the period when his details got into Epstein's little black book.

From my memories of the 90's, casual blackface by then was pretty much a no-no by then but where it could be justified in context - like the Jason Lee skit on FFL - was considered just about okay for comedic relief to a point. Anyone whom like me that regularly watched American pro-wrasslin' in the late 90's probably remembers from the WWE the "Nation of Domination" parody act by the Degeneration X stable where since the NoD members were all black bar one, two DX members went on pretty much blackface while two others definitely slapped on a good bit of heavy fake tan in order to impersonate NoD members. While it's reported that the wrestlers that made up the NoD faction were told in advance that this was happening and apparently had no issues with it, it was still a little bit controversial at the time even when we were in an era of "edgy" comedy - such a skit would be an absolute no-go in 2023 for either any broadcaster or any serious promoter (except maybe if GBeebies tries their crap hand at comedy again). YT Video for reference...



To me, it's a case of the zeigiest being captured - I remember seeing complaints in the media at the time about how 90's general culture was itself being "too politically correct" and on reflection it was at least within living memory a decade where a first notable effort was being made to help integrate minorities into mainstream culture beyond mere tokenism though in quite a few cases what was well meaning was in hindsight quite ham fisted or came over as obnoxious. Times change albeit often slowly, and we try and adapt to our best by trying to understand the past generations. I'd be reasonably sure that in 20-30 years time there will be critiques of how todays social constructs were handled and made. It's inevitable. What we don't know for certain is what those social constructs will actually be by then.

davidjay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:24 pm

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:34 pm No it doesn't in fact Baddiel actually addresssed that in his documentary and pointed out how it's used as whataboutery to attack him and distract from what he's saying.

There's more than one type of racism. Baddiel is hot on the sort that starts with violence but wasn't so quick with the aren't foreigners funny stuff.

This is well worth a watch. Baddiel is clearly remorseful about it, and regrets it took him so long to address things.

I first assumed comedians blacking up in the noughties was some kind of post modern irony I wasn’t getting. Rory Bremner was first out the traps but he was dressing up for his long standing impressions like Mandela and Trevor McDonald. He comes from a good place but it wasn’t a pass card for twats like Lucas and Walliams to be doing the sort of Sambo impressions that explain why the Goodies are rarely screened.

Well it’s a take. To be fair he doesn’t believe Corbyn was responsible for Labour’s results under his leadership.

Youngian wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:16 pm I first assumed comedians blacking up in the noughties was some kind of post modern irony I wasn’t getting. Rory Bremner was first out the traps but he was dressing up for his long standing impressions like Mandela and Trevor McDonald. He comes from a good place but it wasn’t a pass card for twats like Lucas and Walliams to be doing the sort of Sambo impressions that explain why the Goodies are rarely screened.

Bremner's Ainsley Harriott has not aged well. He was asked about it a couple of years back and defended himself on the grounds that he wanted to look as much like the people he was impersonating as possible...An argument slightly undermined by the fact that his Ainsley came complete with giant googly eyes like something out of Toontown.

Stewart Lee has written and spoken quite a bit about the fact that his generation of comedians sort-of assumed - erroneously, in retrospect - that racism, sexism, homophobia etc. were, if not completely settled issues, then at the very least significantly on the wane, and they they therefore had greater licence to play around. No one could possibly think they were prejudiced. I think it would be safe to say that he's since judged this to have been an incautious approach.

Sigh, as they say. Some of those names surprise me...some not so much. I knew, either personally or via their work, a handful of entirely decent people who were SWP members back in the day; once the Comrade Delta business spilled out into the open every single one of them left.

I used to make a point of talking to SWP people in Bethnal Green Road and always found them pleasant to talk to, and not even too pushy about selling me their paper. Usually the think they were collecting signatures for was something of cross party interest that I could happily sign. In fairness, lots of them did walk out over Comrade Delta. I'm surprised a replacement party didn't get off the ground.

Isn't it time Callinicos retired?